Football Outside of the Big Ten - The Independents

by Bama Hawkeye on Jun 30, 2009 1:42 PM CDT in All

From time to time, it's important to look outside the Big Ten and remind ourselves that there is football being played by other teams in other conferences non-affiliated FBS stadiums. The Rivalry, Esq. continues its look at those other conferences institutions with a glance at the Independents. This year, that means focusing on the three last vestiges of rugged American individualism. Seems appropriate that two of them are service academies..

Army-navy-1967-crockett_medium

The Rivalry, Esq. has already looked at these conferences:

Sun Belt

MAC

1) 2008 Recap

a. Who Won the League

No league for these three teams to win, so you can pick your winner one of three ways:

1) Notre Dame beat Navy who beat Army. Notre Dame wins!

2) Navy finished 8-4; Notre Dame finished 6-6; Army finished 3-9. Navy wins!

3) Army wore camo uniforms. Army wins!

Capturearmycamohelmet_medium

b. Games of Note

It starts and ends with the Army/Navy game doesn't it? Navy won 34-0, and the difference between the two teams seemed at least as large as that final score. That makes the tally favor Navy 72-3 over the past two years and the all-time series favor Navy 53-49-7 -- Navy's largest ever lead in victories.

Navy had a strong September win against Wake Forest in Winston-Salem (more on that later), and also beat the Air Force again to keep the Commander's Cup in Maryland.

Notre Dame beat one of its main rivals, topping Michigan 35-17, but lost to USC, Michigan State, and Boston College. The up and down season reached its lowest point as a lame-duck Syracuse squad beat the Irish 24-23 on Senior Day in South Bend. Did I mention that Greg Robinson was coaching Syracuse? Not good...

c. Bowl Teams

Navy agreed to play in the Eagle Bank Bowl in Washington, DC before the season. They were to be paired with the 7th Choice of the ACC. You can imagine their joy when they were assigned Wake Forest as an opponent. There is nothing worse than a repeat of a regular season game in a bowl game. This should be avoided at all costs. Navy dropped the rematch 29-19.

Notre Dame traveled to Aloha Stadium to face Hawai'i in the Hawai'i Bowl. Just to show how times have changed, in 1996, 8-3 Notre Dame turned down bowl invitations, because their season ending loss to USC kept them from earning a prestigious enough bowl bid. In 2008, Notre Dame over-powered the weaker Warriors, OR Notre Dame showed that it was coming together and a team to watch in 2009. Opinions differ.

I'm not allowed to show pictures of Mr. Clausen's hair on this site.

d. Games Against the Big Ten

Date	Independent Team	Score	Big Ten Team	Score	Location
September 13, 2008	Notre Dame	35	Michigan	17	South Bend, IN
September 20, 2008	Notre Dame	7	Michigan State	23	East Lansing, MI
September 27. 2009	Notre Dame	38	Purdue	21	South Bend, IN

Notre Dame faced its three traditional Big Ten Rivals. The better team was at home in each game. There were no upsets. Ho-hum...

2) 2009 Preview

a. Games of Note

Date	Independent Team	Opponent	Location
September 12, 2009	Army	Duke	West Point, NY
September 19, 2009	Navy	Pitt	Pittsburgh, PA
September 26, 2009	Army	Iowa State	Ames, IA
October 17, 2009	Notre Dame	Southern Cal	South Bend, IN
October 24, 2009	Notre Dame	Boston College	South Bend, IN
November 14, 2009	Notre Dame	Pitt	Pittsburgh, PA

Again, it all starts with the Army/Navy game on December 12, 2009. After that, the games reflect the status of the schools.

USC may be the only game in which Notre Dame is an underdog (maybe MSU too?). The Notre Dame schedule sounds great. It is full of traditional football powers and former champions. But if you start looking at it, the Irish are playing a lot of schools who will end up with 7 wins or less. It's a great opportunity for a big year.

Army has a schedule that would ensure six wins for most teams. It could happen for them, but not if they can't beat either Duke or Iowa State.

Navy's schedule isn't that taxing outside of the games against the Irish and Buckeyes. A win at a rebuilding Pitt could set up a strong season.

b. Games Against the Big Ten

Date	Independent Team	Big Ten Team	Location
September 5, 2009	Navy	Ohio State	Columbus, OH
September 12, 2009	Notre Dame	Michigan	Ann Arbor, MI
September 19, 2009	Notre Dame	Michigan State	South Bend, IN
September 26, 2009	Notre Dame	Purdue	West Lafayette, IN

Notre Dame plays the usual suspects. Navy opens the season at Ohio State. It will be interesting to watch an inexperienced defense face the option. Will Ohio State have the discipline to stop the rushing attack? Yes, and the game won't be close.

c. Bowl Affiliations

Army has agreed to play in the Eagle Bank Bowl in DC. Now they just have to get that pesky sixth win.

Navy has agreed to play in the Texas Bowl in Houston. The last time they bowled in Houston, this happened. Not cool.

Notre Dame has their sights set on returning to the BCS. If a BCS bid doesn't come through, a 7 win or better Notre Dame team will go to the Gator Bowl and face the second non-BCS selection from the ACC.

3) 2009 Projections

a. Who Will Win the League?

Again, no real winner here, but I'll venture this guess: Notre Dame beats Navy, who beats Army. But this year, Notre Dame has the best record of the three schools.

b. Any wins against the Big Ten?

Absolutely one (Purdue). Should be two (Michigan). If it's a BCS season for Notre Dame, there will be three (Michigan State). There won't be four.

He'll sink your battleship.

c. Who Goes Bowling?

Navy will get their six wins and go to Texas. I think that Notre Dame will have a huge year. Anything less than a Gator Bowl and 9-3 is a disappointment. I see more, though. I think the Irish will be an at large BCS selection at 10-2.

d. Any MNC Hopes?

Absolutely. Notre Dame has a one game window. Beat USC and an undefeated or one-loss Notre Dame will be in the discussion. An 11-1 Notre Dame team, with a loss to USC, probably doesn't have the schedule to make it.

e. The Rivalry Notes

Normally, this is a question posed to one of the site's founders that relates the conference at hand with the Big Ten. We're focusing more on the acadamies this holiday week. Graham Filler does the honor.

Do you actually watch the Army/Navy game, and if so, do you root for either squad?

I actually do watch the Army/Navy game, but not the whole damn thing. That would be unnecessary. I will watch about 2 quarters of it, because I love watching throwback rushing offenses. Its also good to see all those cadets in uniform going ape-shit and doing push ups. This game is all about passion and it's fun to watch -- I remember when I visited West Point and they had "Beat Navy" painted in huge block letters in the grass; that's just an impressive spectacle.

Yearly, I root for Army, for the same reason that someone roots for Western Kentucky in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Army has been getting slaughtered by Navy for the past seven years and inequality in a rivalry isn't fun for anyone, so I'd like to see the sprightly underdog win one.

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Comments

Good God Jesus

I forgot about that heavenly Notre Dame game against Syracuse…I remember being in a Columbus B Dubs, feeling my body unthaw from the 15 degree UM-OSU game…and people were flipping out when the Cuse came back late to win…..beautiful

by Graham Filler on Jun 30, 2009 2:06 PM CDT reply actions

Huh?

A 10-2 ND means taking 2 of 3 from MSU, Pitt, and BC (plus the inevitable butt-kicking at the hands of USC). That’s not going to happen.

Besides, I’m not sure a BCS-eligible but not BCS-guaranteed ND (i.e. they finish between #9 and #14 in the final BCS standings) is the lock for an at-large bid that they would have been five or ten years ago.

I think we can already be pretty safe in assuming that USC, Ohio State, Penn State, Florida, Oklahoma and Texas will get BCS bids (USC will win the Pac 10, Florida will win the SEC, either OSU or PSU will win the Big Ten and the other will be BCS eligible, either Oklahoma or Texas will win the Big 12 and the other will be BCS eligible). That’s six spots. Then the champions of the Big East and ACC get spots, which makes eight. And if you figure at least one non-BCS conference champ meets the autobid critieria — which seems to happen every year — that makes nine.

So ND is competing for the last BCS bowl spot with any of the other non-Big 12/Big Ten teams in the final BCS top 14 — and that’s assuming one of them doesn’t sneak as the final #3 or #4 and walk off with an autobid. And if one of the big-name SEC schools like Alabama or LSU or Georgia is available, I’m not at all convinced ND gets it. And if a Pac 10 runner-up is in the top 10 and doesn’t get a BCS bid, I imagine the new P10 commish is going to be making a lot of angry calls.

by drothgery on Jun 30, 2009 4:24 PM CDT reply actions

You and I disagree

1) About the relative strengths of BC and Pitt. I think that they both take big steps back this year – especially the Eagles. I also think that ND will be better than MSU. ND wins at least two and likely all three of those games.
2) About Penn State (see: http://www.rivalryesq.com/2009/6/8/902506/plow-horses-the-case-against-penn)
3) About the value of Notre Dame. They still put butts in the seats and bring eyes to the TV sets. In the end, that’s what the bowl selections are about. If eligible, they will be chosen before anyone else. Bar none.

Notre Dame is going to be better this year than last; the schedule will make them look MUCH better.

by Bama Hawkeye on Jun 30, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions

Eh.

Pitt’s bringing almost everyone but McCoy back of what was their best team in a long time, and after a long string of impressive recruiting classes that are finally starting to do something. It’s pretty much a coinflip between them and Rutgers for who wins the Big East this year.

I’m not sure we disagree a lot about Penn State. They’re just better than everyone on their schedule except Ohio State (they’ll certainly kick our butts — that’s Syracuse, BTW), and an 11-1 PSU (or even 10-2, if they lose a random game in there somewhere) is going to be in the BCS top 14 and a sure thing for an at-large spot. It’s the same logic that Alabama got by on last year, and Kansas did the year before; you don’t have to be a great team to be highly ranked, just better than all but one team you played.

But I guess we mostly disagree about how good ND will be. I think they’re still going to be a bad team, maybe slightly better and playing a softer schedule, but still fundamentally a team that would not break .500 in-conference in any BCS conference. It’s worth reminding people, again, that ND lost to a minimally talented Syracuse team coached by Greg Robinson last year. I bleed Orange, but we really sucked. They are not to suddenly become a top-15 level team, and they’d need to be that to sweep MSU, Pitt, and BC.

And I guess I don’t see the TV market for watching ND get killed, which has happened the last two times they were in BCS games, with teams far more talented than this year’s squad.

by drothgery on Jun 30, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions

And I guess I don’t see the TV market for watching ND get killed, which has happened the last two times they were in BCS games, with teams far more talented than this year’s squad.

I believe the word is schadenfraude (Law Buck did I spell that right?)…I absolutely rejoice in watching Notre Dame get smashed and I am not discriminatory in who is killing them. Navy? Great…USC? Great again…

by Graham Filler on Jun 30, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions

Close, it's Schadenfreude.

The Rivalry, Esq.
Big Ten Football. Excuses Included.

by Jonathan Franz on Jul 1, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions

thanks

loved the movie

by Graham Filler on Jul 1, 2009 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions

Maybe that's fun once or twice...

… but we’ve seen it twice in BCS games already, and in every USC-ND game (and half of ND’s other regular season games). It gets old eventually.

by drothgery on Jul 1, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions

Disagree

I will never tire of seeing Notre Dame lose. Just when you think that it can not get any better, they lose to a Navy or Syracuse(No Offense, although I wish we(PSU) would have got the same Cuse team in 08-09 that was there when we scheduled them). The key is just waiting for them to find more creative ways to lose the games.

That said, I would agree that it gets old with just about any other school other than ND. God I hate those domers

Black Shoes. Basic Blues. No Name. All Game.

"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the mouth."

by Roland86 on Jul 2, 2009 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions

I keep telling PSU fans who say that...

… that SU’s 2001 record was very much a fluke, and it was obvious that it was the case, and I’m sure Penn State knew that in all likelyhood they’d be getting a mediocre Orange team at best. If they wanted to play us when we were good, they would have schedule us in the 1990s.

by drothgery on Jul 2, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions