Common Sense or Hodgepodge of Ass? Hodgepodge of Ass, Please...
by Ted Glover on Aug 27, 2010 10:30 PM CDT
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PrintRumblings are starting to come out of Chicago that the Big Ten is finalizing conference alignments, and from the sound of it, it sounds like the Big Ten is about to drink a 55 gallon drum full of FAIL. When it comes to divisional alignments, you have two options: geographic or competitive, and a respect for long standing rivalries. There are three conferences that have split along both lines, the Big XII, SEC and the ACC. The SEC chose geography, the ACC chose 'competitive balance', and the Big XII chose to chuck one of the greatest rivalries in college football overboard. What happened? The SEC blew up into the most competitive conference in the country with rivalries as intense as ever, the ACC is a hodgepodge of ass right now because the comptetive balance they envisioned didn't develop and they have no geographic rivalries to really fall back on, and the Big XII is down to ten schools because one of the teams who had their traditional rivalry screwed with went to...the Big Ten.
Oh, and they want to split OSU and Michigan into separate divisions and play the game earlier in the year. Fuck and that.
I am a traditionalist, yet I was able to embrace the change of the Nebraska addition and the splitting of the conference into divisions. The way Jim Delany was playing chess while everyone else was playing checkers gave me confidence that if he was bold enough to get a Nebraska, that the splitting of the conference into divisions based on geography would be a no-brainer. I did a whole post on why geographic alignments were best, the purpose of this post isn't to rehash that, because most folks, (not all) think that a geographic alignment is the best format, because it preserves most rivalries and trophy games. I also felt that if Michigan and OSU were in the same division, the intensity of the rivalry would not change. I did a post on that, too.
But now it seems like the Big Ten is going to go all New Coke on us and screw everything up. Instead of making it simple, it looks like Iowa and Wisconsin will be in separate divisions. If that's true, the Big Ten seems to be leaning towards the ACC strategy of 'Hey, let's just randomly throw teams into divisions, and see how it plays out'.
Adam Rittenberg has been reading the tea leaves based on what he's hearing and has his prediction of divisions is this:
Division 1
Michigan
Michigan State
Iowa
Nebraska
Illinois
Northwestern
Division 2
Ohio State
Penn State
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Purdue
Indiana
The one that jumps out is splitting OSU-UM into separate divisions. The thinking is that they should play for the conference championship, which means if they do that (which seems dubious right now considering Michigan's, uh...situation) the OSU-UM game will move from it's current spot as the last game of the season, because no one would want them to play back to back weeks. Yes, I am an OSU fan, so maybe I'm biased, and feel free to tell me I am in the comments. But UM-OSU is the marquee rivalry game in this conference, hell in all of college footbal. Hell, in all of sports, especially when both teams are competitive. It draws interest from fans outside the conference, and that draws money, and I think the brand is hurt if The Game is moved into October, when it's just another conference game and not deciding who goes to the Big Ten championship game.
The other one that jumps out is that the oldest rivalry games between Minnesota, Iowa, and Wisconsin will go the way of Nebraska-Oklahoma. MN-WI will be preserved, but by moving Iowa out of the same division means the IA-MN or IA-WI rivalry will be sacrificed, as teams will only have one cross-division rival. None of those games are UM-OSU, but they mean just as much to those fanbases.
I love Ohio State football and the OSU-UM rivalry. I grew up on the Floyd of Rosedale and Paul Bunyan Axe Rivalry games, and many of you live and die with the outcome of the Old Oaken Bucket, the Heartland Trophy, the Sweet Sioux Tomahawk (sorry, it will ALWAYS be the Sweet Sioux Tomahawk), the Paul Bunyan Trophy, and the most meaningful trophy of them all--The Land Grant Trophy. Adding Nebraska into this tradition-rich conference and giving them rivalries that will be on par with what has already been established can be done, but not at the expense of the marquee rivalry.
Tradition is what we grew up on, and what made us fall in love with the Big Ten and college football, and it seems like the Big Ten is about to try and outsmart themselves by a half and come out looking idiotic in the process.
Now, tell me I'm an idiot and this will end up all right, but I'm just not seeing it. That this will be all right, that is. I've known I'm an idiot for years.
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Okay, who's going to forget the division alignments fifteen seconds after they come out?
(digitally, squeamishly raises own hand)
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 10:47 PM CDT reply actions
Anyone know David Brandon's e-mail?
I’ve got some choice words for him…
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Question answered.
Thanks, but no thanks. There’s more flames between MaizeNBrew and MGO now than there ever have been. If I open that door, I might get shot through my computer screen. Ugh.
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
The email addresses that I sent my email to were
OSU Pres. E Gordon Gee – gordon.gee@osu.edu
UM Pres. Mary Sue Coleman – presoff@umich.edu
OSU AD Gene Smith – smith.5407@osu.edu
UM AD Dave Brandon/UM Football – email.football@umich.edu
Jim Delany – jdelany@bigten.org
"I think so, Brain, but how are we going to get the bacon flavoring into the pencils?"
I just signed those assholes up
For so much free porn.
A Voice From Kinnick - A Hawkeye Blog
by mikjones24 on Aug 28, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
somebody has a lot of thank you cards coming their way
When asked why he went for 5, Tate responded "..because I couldn't go for 6...".
http://www.insidetheshoe.com/
by SouthBayBuckeye on Aug 28, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I have said this since David Brandon went off the deep end
There’s no way Michigan defeats Ohio State twice a season in any sport except hockey. And even that’s questionable.
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 10:48 PM CDT reply actions
what's a hockey?
When asked why he went for 5, Tate responded "..because I couldn't go for 6...".
http://www.insidetheshoe.com/
by SouthBayBuckeye on Aug 28, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
As awful as this is, rumor now is it's even worse
A comment on TOC suggested that they’re not even going to count cross-division games for the division title, except as a tiebreaker. Which … holy @#$%. There aren’t even enough words to describe how moronic that is. In fact, describing it as “moronic” is a grave insult to morons everywhere.
I swear, they’re doing their absolute best to screw this up. Take every possible bad idea, combine them all together, and you’d have something closely resembling the information that’s coming out.
OMGTHEBIGTEN*IS*BECOMINGTHEACC!
It’s ridiculous because it’s true.
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
That would mean that a 8-1 team could finish behind a 5-4 team.
How is that fair? One hand it would make it easier for the bottom dwellers of the league to get into the championship game…but cheapen the value of the Championship itself.
Cross division games don't count for winning the division in the SEC
Why would they. Only games against division foes should count towards winning the division. I’m disappointed they are pissing all over geographic rivals.
by HawkeyeRecon on Aug 28, 2010 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Uh, yes, they do.
SEC Divisional Tiebreakers: (emphasis mine)
In the event of a tie for the division championship, the following procedures will be used to break all ties to determine the SEC Football Championship Game representative. All Conference versus Conference Games (both division and non-division) will be counted in the Conference Standings.
A. TWO-TEAM TIE
1. Head-to-head competition between the two tied teams.
2. Records of the tied teams within the division.
3. Head-to-head competition vs. the team within the division with the best overall record (divisional and non-divisional) Conference record and proceeding through the division. Multiple ties within the division will be broken from first to last.
4. Overall record vs. all common non-divisional opponents.
5. Combined record vs. all common non-divisional teams.
6. Record vs. common non-divisional team with the best overall Conference (divisional and non-divisional) record and proceeding through other common non-divisional teams based on their order of finish within their division.
7. The tied team with the highest ranking in the Bowl Championship Series Standings following the last weekend of regular-season games shall be the divisional representative in the SEC Championship Game.
B. THREE (OR MORE) TEAM TIE
1. (Once the tie has been reduced to two teams, go to the two-team tie-breaker format.)
2. Combined head-to-head record among the tied teams.
3. Record of the tied teams within the division.
4. Head-to-head competition vs. the team within the division with the best overall (divisional and non-divisional) Conference record and proceeding through the division. Multiple ties within the division will be broken from first to last.
5. Overall record vs. non-division teams.
6. Combined record vs. all common non-divisional teams.
7. Record vs. common non-divisional team with the best overall Conference (divisional and non-divisional) record and proceeding through other common non-divisional teams based on their order of finish within their division.
8. The tied team with the highest ranking in the Bowl Championship Series Standings following the last weekend of regular-season games shall be the divisional representative in the SEC Championship Game, unless the second of the tied teams is ranked within five-or-fewer places of the highest ranked tied team. In this case, the head-to-head results of the top two ranked tied teams shall determine the representative in the SEC Championship Game.
Second tiebreaker (after head-to-head) is record against the division only, but all conference games count. As it happens, it wouldn’t have made any difference (assuming that overall conference record were the second tiebreaker after head-to-head) in the past 5 years, but it would still be the dumbest rule in the history of everything.
As a western Iowan..
I’ve been dying to see Iowa beat Nebraska for years, so it’s a little hard for me to care about losing the Wisconsin rivalry. You’re right, though, that it seems stupid to split Michigan and Ohio State up since there’s very little chance they will meet up in the championship game, even when (if) Michigan recovers. As far as what losing the Iowa Wisconsin game means… Both Iowa and Wisconsin really hate Minnesota, and the animosity between Iowa and Wisconsin just isn’t there, but it has been a great and really competitive rivalry. It ramped up when guys with connections to the Hawkeyes started coaching there (Alvarez, Bielema). But, it’s not Nebraska v. Oklahoma, and it’s not Ohio St. v. Michigan. The hate, though, is reserved for others.
by BradBanks4ever on Aug 27, 2010 10:48 PM CDT reply actions
There's more respect in Wisconsin-Iowa.
There’s more hatred in Iowa-Minnesota, and more disdain in Wisconsin-Minnesota.
Gopher fans will quote how many National Championships they have (5, to be correct, 1968 is invalidated by that year’s Rose Bowl result. It’s the equivalent of Ohio State losing the NCG in ’06 and claiming they won it all). Wisconsin fans can then quote how well the Gophers have played of late.
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a pretty good take.
While I think it sucks to see Wisconsin/Iowa going by the wayside, I’m cool with it as long as it’s replaced by iowa/Nebraska. Iowa doesn’t have a true rival in the conference, and with the ‘skers coming on board, that will change. You could say that Iowa’s rivals are Wisconsin and Minnesota, but most Gopher and Badger fans will tell you that they save their animosity for each other.
I was against Michigan and OSU getting split up at first, but with the arrangement set up like this, I’m cool with it.
You're correct.
Iowa usually seems like the third wheel when the Gophers and the Badgers are concerned with each other. I really liked the Iowa rivalry for the competitiveness though.
Bucky's 5th Quarter The best site for Badger news on the web!
Follow me on Twitter for the latest Badger Bits @veldyhoosey
On, Wisconsin!
by John Veldhuis on Aug 28, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually you're both wrong
No other school will randomly start chanting “who hates IOWA we hate IOWA…” at completely unrelated sporting events… thats the Iowa Minnesota rivalry right there… As an Iowa fan, I love beating up on the Gophers, but I have a ton of respect for the Badgers
by Omahawk(eye) on Aug 28, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Sorry
I spent three years living near Minneapolis. Folks in that part of the world spend an awful lot of time bashing on Iowans and the Packers. They may say that Wisconsin is their biggest rival and they don’t care about Iowa, but it isn’t true. They care a great deal.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
That's a really good way to put it.
I hope that Iowa v. Wisconsin will come back once there’s a 9-game schedule. It’s been a great series, but the emotion just isn’t there.
by BradBanks4ever on Aug 27, 2010 11:02 PM CDT reply actions
We need a break...
Last time Wisconsin didn’t play Iowa, I’m pretty sure they won their first ever Rose Bowl…
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
Haha
Bucky's 5th Quarter The best site for Badger news on the web!
Follow me on Twitter for the latest Badger Bits @veldyhoosey
On, Wisconsin!
by John Veldhuis on Aug 28, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Alternative Title
Failing Realignment: What the Big Ten Did NOT Learn From the ACC
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 27, 2010 11:19 PM CDT reply actions
Sorry… I hate Wisky more than anybody and I’m not the only Hawkeye that feels this way. It will suck to see any of those three games disappear.
However, I don’t think that the divisional alignments have much to do with why the SEC are where they are right now.
It's not the only reason, no
But I can assure you that if the SEC had tried to split up Auburn-Alabama and moved them to October, Slive would have been lynched within five minutes of suggesting it.
SEC
Did split up Alabama and Tennessee, who have a rivalry that is more similar to OSU/UM (and also had accounted for than half of the conference titles at the time of the split).
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Hawkeye State
Off Tackle Empire
by Bama Hawkeye on Aug 28, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Bama-Auburn was the nastier rivalry, and still is
And because Tennessee’s big rivals (Georgia and Bama) were going to be in opposite divisions, one of them had to be split up. That is rather emphatically not the case here.
Splitting up
the 2 dominant SEC teams made sense. Same with the Big Ten.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Hawkeye State
Off Tackle Empire
by Bama Hawkeye on Aug 28, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Is Michigan really one of the "dominant" teams?
In the 11-team era, they’re second, but not by much. (And a similar argument could be made that Georgia, not Tennessee, was the second “dominant” SEC team at the time – Tennessee was 40 years removed from a national title and had two 10-win seasons in the prior 20 years; Georgia had won 10 four years in a row in the early ’80s, including a national title. All-time conference titles were 11-10 favoring Tennessee.)
Besides that, what assures they’ll stay “dominant”? Juggling divisions for balance works only as long as the balance doesn’t shift – which it inevitably will.
In the 11 team Big Ten
Michigan was only relevant when John Cooper was their head coach. Wait, WHAT?
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 29, 2010 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
The ADs are adminstrating their hearts out
and Jim Delaney is screwing it up.
Es gibt keine Freude wie Schadenfreude
I dunno, the OSU and Mich AD's aren't helping
That may be less because they like the idea of moving the game and more “well, we can’t do anything about it, better start trying to sell this shit sandwich to the fans”, but still.
Yeah, Smith and Brandon need to fall on their swords
Over this. There’s a lot of rumors coming out of Chicago, but confirmation of Iowa-Wisconsin getting split up means they’re going down a path that doesn’t look good.
"Whoever said that the pen is mightier than the sword never encountered automatic weapons."
If I were one of them I would be raising an absolute shitstorm
Which is probably why I’m not one of them (diplomacy has never been my strong suit), but I would have gone into the expansion debate saying “The Game stays the last weekend and in division, or I’m voting against the whole damn thing.”
by SpartanDan on Aug 28, 2010 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Instead of a canned response, I got this from Delany
When asked why he went for 5, Tate responded "..because I couldn't go for 6...".
http://www.insidetheshoe.com/
by SouthBayBuckeye on Aug 28, 2010 11:15 AM CDT reply actions
Like Professor Xavier,
Delany knows things that our minds cannot contemplate.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
At least, that's what we hope...
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 29, 2010 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Keep The Game The Last Game
I dislike Michigan with great gusto. I f’n hate Ohio State. I think the worst thing about The Game is that one of them has to win.
But even I think it is one of the great traditions of one of the great rivalries in sports. It belongs as the last game of the year. Anything else is just a giant fuck up by the Big Ten. Want to see an intense game? Watch those two knock heads over the right to go to the CCG.
Also, no cross division protected rivalries.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Out of curiosity, why on the no cross-division games?
I don’t especially like them (it means you’d only play the rest 2 out of 5 with an 8-game schedule), but I’m not quite as adamantly opposed to them as I was earlier. Maybe because the conference has gone out of its way to demonstrate just how much worse it could be. (On the other hand, get rid of protected cross-division rivalries and they have no choice but to unfuck the divisions.)
I think they're dumb
Part of it is for the 2 of 5 reason you gave, part of it is just an unexplainable personal feeling, part of it is a “if the game is that important, put them in the same damn division” feeling.
I think Nebraska was a great add. I’m just hoping that all the rumors are either a smoke screen that mean nothing or Delaney & Co. wanting to see how people react. Which is about 99% against.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
I agree with a divisions based upon competiveness...
With cross divisional rivalry games, the divisions themselves are less important. However, the cross divisional games must count towards the divisional championship, the intra division record should be the tie breaker.
Why would a game vs a team not in your division count towards determining who wins your division?
Cross division games should only count as a tie breaker for determining division winners.
by HawkeyeRecon on Aug 28, 2010 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Then they aren't divisions.
They’re two separate conferences with a weird scheduling agreement.
Games against AFC teams count for determining NFC playoff spots.
Games against the Eastern Conference count for determining Western Conference playoff spots.
Games against the AL East count for determining the AL Central champion.
In fact, I can’t think of a single league with divisions that does it your way. Sometimes you play only within your division, but then there aren’t any non-division games to ignore.
the SEC
interdivisional games only come into play if a 3 way tie occurs.
by HawkeyeRecon on Aug 29, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Repeating this doesn't make it any less wrong.
I posted the tiebreakers from their official site upthread. It very specifically states that all conference games, whether against your division or not, count.
According to the rules you posted, it only matters IN CASE OF A TIE.
So yes, a team with a worse record can go to the championship game if they have a better record in the division.
by HawkeyeRecon on Aug 29, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Read more carefully
If “better record within the division” was what counted, why would “better record within the division” be the second tiebreaker? And why, before the tiebreaker rules were even listed, would it say very specifically “All Conference versus Conference Games (both division and non-division) will be counted in the Conference Standings”?
Couldn't agree more
If anything, an 8 (later, 9) game sample size for standing determination is better than 6. Besides, cross-division games would help to eliminate the “Oh, shit, the (insert division here) is so much worse than the other division!” meme that will circulate whenever a team that is not one of the traditional top six plays for the CCG.
You see what I did there? Yeeeaaaaaahhhh.
Ummm, I think you're confusing the meaning of "inter-divisional" and "intra-divisional"
In the SEC, conference record is how division champions are chosen. If Tennessee, Florida, and Georgia tie at 6-2, first it goes to head-to-head among those three. If they’re all 1-1 in that situation, only then does it go to intra-divisional record(ie, SEC East record).
As a side note, the SEC’s 2-team tiebreaker needs to be updated….since there are no more ties, the 2-team tiebreaker is just “head to head”, since everyone plays everyone in their division
"I think so, Brain, but how are we going to get the bacon flavoring into the pencils?"
May as well leave them, in case a game somehow gets cancelled and can't be made up
Not sure what circumstances would prompt that – three weeks of hurricanes in a row, maybe.
Okay, then, tell me who's going to be good 20 years from now.
If you design the divisions for competitive balance, you’re still going to be wrong at least 1/4 of the time, probably more often than that. Optimize the stuff you can reliably optimize, and let the rest work itself out.
The SEC East dominated the early days of their split. Now they’re about dead even.
The Big XII North had all the powerhouses in the early days. Now the South is running amok.
The ACC expected a Miami-FSU title game to be a regular occurrence. Miami’s never been there, and FSU only once – and the expected top four teams this year are all in the same division.
In other words, the one conference that explicitly went for balance has gotten it spectacularly wrong, and the two that didn’t have already seen the balance shift dramatically in 18 or 14 years, respectively. If you think neither of those will happen with the Big Ten, you’re an incurable optimist.
It's not one or the other...you can have balance and protect the rivalries...
With a 9 game season, and cross divisional rivalry games, you can have balance within the divisions and protect geographical rivalries.
Yes its true that the alignment could become unbalanced overtime, however, it is likely that it will remain balanced at least for the short to medium term.
With a geographic rivalry, whoever is placed in the presumed east division with OSU UM and PSU will get screwed, because they will be forced to beat the top three teams in the league if they want to make the championship game.
Further, each divisions should be of minor significance, serving only a method of queing up two teams for the championship game. Cross divisional games should count towards the divisional championships, like they do in all the professional sports.
Cross-division rivalries mean far less than in-division, though
Using them to keep a secondary rivalry going is fine. But you don’t put primary rivals in opposite divisions if there’s any alternative.
And Michigan, OSU, and PSU aren’t going to be the top three forever. They obviously aren’t now, for instance. In fact, they haven’t been since 1997 (though there have been a couple times it’s been close).
(I fully agree that cross-division games should count, though. That would have been assumed as bloody obvious if Brandon hadn’t brought it up on WTKA a few days ago.)
Actually, come to think of it
With Nebraska included, Michigan, OSU, and PSU would never have been the top three in any year since PSU joined. Both times it happened in the Big Ten (1994 and 1997), Nebraska was undefeated.
Guys, you're cherry picking your data....
It’s about more than recent wins and losses. The big 4 schools are the strongest in a number of ways, including their revenue and recruiting bases. Think about it….PSU has, for the most part, the entire state of PA united behind them. Ohio State and Nebraska ….same thing. Michigan has State to contend with these days, but that won’t last forever. In addition, their tradition is undeniable.
No other teams in the Big Ten can match what these schools have. There are ups and downs in certain years, but in terms of who has the strongest foundations for success, these four teams are at the top.
I'm torn between...
“So UM hopes” and “Go Fuck Yourself” in response to this:
Michigan has State to contend with these days, but that won’t last forever.
The all-time series is heavily in UM's favor. UM 67-30-5
However there should be some caveats to that.
Until approximately 1946 or so MSU was a small mid-western farming school while UM was a larger nationally recognized institution.
From 1912 thru 1957 the game between the schools was played in East Lansing 4 times. 4 times in 43 games. Including a mind bending 20 straight games in AA between 1925 and 1947. Even after MSU was admitted to the Big Ten (1953) the next 6 match ups were 4 out of 6 in AA.
As late as 1967/68 games were held in AA in back to back years. The game has never been held in EL in back to back years. Ever. 70 of the 102 meetings between the schools have been held in AA. Which is about even with UM’s winning percentage in the games.
Since MSU has joined the Big Ten our record against UM is a more respectable 21-34-2. To put things in perspective: it took us 52 years and 43 matchups to win 7 games against UM. We’ve won 7 alone in the past 20 years/matchups. Not great, but better.
On average before joining the B10 the Spartans would win 1 of 5 matchups. After joining it became more like 2 of every 5.
Historically, the deck has been stacked against us. We had our best stretch from 1950-1970 where we went 14-5-2 (again 14 of these 21 games were in AA). What’s to stop us from having a run like that again. Especially if UM continues on the down period they are presently on?
RichRod or whoever is next will get UM going again. I don’t think MSU is going away though. I believe these games will become what they should be. Evenly matched competitive games between rivals.
Remember: “Past performance is not indicative of future success.”
by MSULaxer27 on Sep 1, 2010 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tom Izzo hired as next head coach of the Michigan State football team?
My hatred of Michigan knows no bounds. Even more so after this travesty.
September 1st, 2010. A day that shall live in infamy.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 2, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
In fact, if you look at the data...
Since PSU joined in ’93, the “Big 3” are 1 – 2 – 3 in wins over this time frame, with UW 4th and Iowa 5th.
Iowa takes a BIG hit from the late-Fry/Ferentz Reconstruction years
Wisconsin takes a big hit from the post Rose Bowl years (01 to 03). Illinois went from average Big Ten team to boom-or-bust BCS team…
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 29, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Not my point
(Besides, include Nebraska in there and they’re no longer 1-2-3. Nebraska has 165 wins since 1993, which beats PSU by 18 and Michigan by 19 but loses to OSU by only 5. And Wisconsin is only 5.5 back of Michigan, counting ties as 1/2.)
I don’t think it matters much if one division is consistently a little stronger than the other. What I think of as “balance” is making sure that the top three or four teams each year – not overall – are unlikely to come from the same division. You don’t want one division so stacked that the third-place team would have easily won the other division. With Nebraska, Wisconsin, and Iowa in the opposite division, the odds of that happening are slim.
2015
I still think the AD’s are pointing towards 2015 when there will be 9 conference games. At that point you can protect two rivalries. If they set the divisions up as follows, you can get some really good cross-over rivalry games. I.e. Michigan would protect OSU now and then Minnesota in 2015. And so on down the line.
Division 1
Michigan – OSU, Minnesota
Michigan State – PSU, Purdue
Iowa – Minnesota, Wisconsin
Nebraska – Wisconsin, PSU
Indiana – Purdue, Illinois
Northwestern – Illinois, OSU
Division 2
OSU – Michigan, Northwestern
PSU – Michigan State, Nebraska
Wisconsin – Nebraska, Iowa
Minnesota – Iowa, Michigan
Purdue – Indiana, Michigan State
Illinois – Northwestern, Indiana
That being said, splitting OSU and UM WILL have an impact on the perception of the game. Even if Nebraska and Oklahoma played every year in October, it would have dimmed a bit because they wouldn’t have been playing for anything but bragging rights. I.e. it just becomes another game.
Or they could, you know, put rivals in the same division so you don't HAVE to protect them.
Just saying.
If you put them in the same division...
Then they can never play a game to decide the Big Ten championship. How is that an improvement?
1) If they do, it renders their first matchup entirely meaningless. Rivalries matter more in college football because there is no second chance. (Alabama-Tennessee is the only one I know of that’s really a major rivalry where it’s even possible, and it’s never happened. And that isn’t either team’s primary rivalry.)
2) Playing earlier in the season and putting them in separate divisions renders the stakes much lower. For the loser, there’s time to recover. For the winner, there’s still much to be done. And they aren’t competing directly against each other for a spot in the championship game. (OU-Texas has the first half of that problem, but not the second; because they’re in the same division, playing for one spot in the title game, the big swing in the standings plus the tiebreaker edge – assuming you don’t get a three-way tie like a couple years ago – is almost always decisive if both teams are good.)
The best rivalries aren’t just built on hate. They’re built on hate, plus a season-long buildup to the event, plus high stakes (conference or division titles often on the line, or a chance to play spoiler). Changing The Game from a frequent de facto conference title game to a frequent de facto division title game is a downgrade, yes. But it’s nowhere near as much of a downgrade as changing it to a midseason cross-division game which will be entirely meaningless should a rematch occur.
You seem to have thought this all out quite well.
I hope there’s a shitstorm of mail (digital and otherwise) going from your home to every AD, university president, and conference official in the Big Ten. You never know, their minds might change.
You see what I did there? Yeeeaaaaaahhhh.
Sent an email to Delany this weekend, but that's it so far
Partly because it took me that long to start believing they’re actually dumb enough to try this, and then another couple hours to come up with a sufficiently diplomatic phrasing (despite it being exactly what I think, calling them morons for even acting like they’re considering such a thing would probably be counter-productive). If this ever becomes official instead of leaks, or should I hear something back from Delany which is not encouraging, a lot more will be headed their way, and it probably won’t be quite as diplomatic.
Same here
I can’t bring myself to start slinging shit without any confirmation. I might actually get conscience-itis. Dammit, that won’t work.
You see what I did there? Yeeeaaaaaahhhh.
Just nail Iowa's AD
with a well-thought out plan to reject such a plan. The other schools should let Ohio State and Michigan’s Athletic Directors know in no uncertain terms what they think of the mess those two schools will create in the vain hopes of a conference title.
We’ve learned nothing from the ACC, so we’re doomed to repeat it.
My kingdom for a spellchecker. Or Devin Harris. Hopefully both.
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...
Manning drops back to pass, Comedic.Sans and Wilfork come flying in and SACK him for a loss of twelve on 3rd and goal!
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Aug 30, 2010 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Once a conference championship game is established, all regular season rivalries must be diminished
You are replacing a de facto conference championship game with an actual conference championship game…whereby the the de facto conference championship game is now the de facto divisional championship game.
By adding PSU and Nebraska, it’s clear that the league wants to move away from a big two little 8 balance of power. Following that logic, then it would make sense for “The Game” to take a step down in stature.
Personally, I say to hell with divisions and a championship game, but we have already crossed the Rubicon on that question.
Adding divisions is necessarily going to diminish it some. Why willingly diminish it more than necessary? (And it hasn’t really been Big 2, Little 9 since Penn State joined, seeing as eight teams have won at least a share of the title since then and at least one of the other three has been alive for a conference title going into the final week.)
Answer me this...
If OSU and MSU are the best teams in the league, and they’re in the same division, and my team is not in that division, why should I care about that game? It will have no impact on me, except to determine who I play in the champ game, if I am in a position to go.
Now, we split the two teams, the outcome of that game will affect everyone, because it will have bearing on where everyone finishes in the division.
It seems to me that by splitting the two teams, you are in fact preserving the importance of the game for everyone.
With respect to the timing of the game, if you have a champ game, it’s not gonna be the last game of the seasoOn a side note…imagine if they made it the very first game of the season, that would make it special no? Talk about a build up.
If they're the two best teams in the league by that wide a margin ...
… odds are they’ve both won their divisions by then anyway. In which case it doesn’t have any impact on anyone else anyway, and doesn’t really have any impact on the two teams involved either, because they’ll be playing again a week later. No good.
As for timing … no, it’s not the last game of the season. But it isn’t now anyway (bowl games). It’s the last game of the regular season, the last game that can affect the championship of their direct-competition unit (which is the division now, rather than the conference; that does decrease the significance some but not as much as splitting them up would). If it absolutely has to be moved, Labor Day weekend is probably the least awful option – but every option that moves it is awful to one degree or another. You can’t play for the title (division or otherwise) in week 1. You can’t even play spoiler in week 1.
Minnesota with OSU & PSU?
Yeah, put the second western-most school in the conference with the 2 eastern-most schools in the conference.
That makes sense????
by Ski U Mah Gopher on Aug 29, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Thinking like an AD...
sometimes doesn’t make sense. But if you are trying to figure out how the AD’s and commish are trying to set up the divisions, you have to think like they do. Based upon what the AD’s and commish have been saying the past couple weeks, Michigan and OSU will be split. They have also made it know that geography is a distant third compared to competitive balance and rivalries. That gives the first piece as:
Division 1
Michigan
Division 2
OSU
Next, you have to split PSU and Nebraska. it makes the most sense to have OSU and PSU together so you get:
Division 1
Michigan
Nebraska
Division 2
OSU
PSU
Now you split Iowa and Wisconsin per Barry Alveraz. Based upon what Tom Osborne has stated, his fan base seems really interested in playing Iowa every year, so we put Iowa with Nebraska:
Division 1
Michigan
Nebraska
Iowa
Division 2
OSU
PSU
Wisconsin
With only one protected crossover, Michigan State has to follow Michigan and Minnesota follows Wisconsin:
Division 1
Michigan
Nebraska
Iowa
Michigan State
Division 2
OSU
PSU
Wisconsin
Minnesota
This leaves the Illinois and Indiana schools. I spilt them this way because of trophy games (Indiana-Michigan State, OSU-Illinois, OSU-Purdure)
Division 1
Michigan
Nebraska
Iowa
Michigan State
Indiana
Northwestern
Division 2
OSU
PSU
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Illinois
Purdue
And just for the record, this setup has 3 “eastern” teams in each division and 3 “western” teams per division.
by Aaron Musfeldt on Aug 29, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
But if you are trying to figure out how the AD’s and commish are trying to set up the divisions, you have to think like they do.
Objection! Assumes process not in evidence (thinking).
OSU-Purdue isn't a trophy game....
Purdue-Illinois is, however. I don’t think there’s any way that Indiana and Purdue get split up….it doesn’t affect “competitive balance” and so they’ll leave them alone.
"I think so, Brain, but how are we going to get the bacon flavoring into the pencils?"
The only thing keeping me from driving over to Park Ridge and throwing a brick through Delany's window
is the feeling I have that this will all get redone in a few years with the addition of 2-4 more teams.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
and then every team will have it's own division
and inter-division games will not count, thus leading to a 16 team big ten playoff that lasts until February.
When asked why he went for 5, Tate responded "..because I couldn't go for 6...".
http://www.insidetheshoe.com/
by SouthBayBuckeye on Aug 30, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
true
but we would be the only one’s who are playing and hence have a media monopoly. Think of the $$$. No one would ever have to pay for tuition again (yeah right).
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Aug 30, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
"Hell, in all of sports, especially when both teams are competitive"
You were doing a good job until then.
St. Louis Cardinals and Indy Colts fan. Avid fan of the Springfield Cardinals, the Cards' AA team!
Piss on it, unwind the Divisions. Every team schedules a cupcake to start their season 1-0, then the 11 remaining games are all conference games. Last team standing wins the Conference. None of this “OSU wins the conference, but didn’t have Iowa on the schedule” blather.
Granted, I don't know what down it is..
Or Wisconsin wins the conference, but didn't have Ohio State on the schedule ala 1998.
I know, I’m reaching, but still…
The various schools of the Big Ten should let Ohio State and Michigan know in no uncertain terms that dissent will NOT be tolerated.
"Because one of the great minds of the 21st century is raising glow-in-the-dark fish and weaving serapes..." -Leonard Hofstadter from The Big Bang Theory
I give the new Big Ten divisions a 0 and a huge EPIC FAIL sticker.
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 1, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
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