The B1G game - the Spartan view and staff predictions.
by MSULaxer27 on Dec 2, 2011 3:53 AM CST
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What if time stopped right here?
Well here we are. This is what expansimaggedon was all about, right? The B1G is finally playing during "Championship Week". We have the latest kickoff, so theoretically at some point on Saturday evening we should have the only college football game on TV.
It seems fitting that the two teams that tied for the B1G title last year (in the last year conference co-champs were possible) should play for the first undisputable, untie-able, unsharable B1G championship.
Settle in boys and girls, this is a lengthy one.
As I watched the October 22 match-up between Michigan State and Wisconsin, I was struck by how unfair it was that the game did not go to overtime. Don't get me wrong, I was extremely pleased that MSU was the victor, but, if I am honest, the ending didn't seem to settle matter. Good teams execute when it matters, for sure, but this was a classic heavyweight battle, one where the last punch landed wins.
It has to be said, that from approximately 1:30 minutes into the second quarter to about 5 minutes in the fourth was about the best I have seen MSU play this season. The offense clicked and the defense was absolutely ferocious. That team, that time, I would take against any in the country.
It also has to be said that Wisconsin, as good teams do, took our best shot and came back swinging. It appeared that they had the momentum if the game would have gone to overtime. Again, to be honest, I was fearful of what the outcome would have been in OT.
So here we are. Maybe this isn't the game that conference dreamed up when they created the divisions (as we keep hearing in the media). Maybe with the irrepressible Brady Hoke leading the resurgent University of Michigan (OMG - did you know Mattison took the 109th ranked defense full of Richrod rejects and turned them into the 16th ranked defense??!!) and the Ohio State University hiring Urban Meyer (OMG - Did you know he won two (2!!!) national championships and is from Ohio and that all his kids have the middle name Woody?!!!) this is just the place holder game until things get back to normal. Maybe this is the new normal.
Whatever the case, the two best teams in the B1G this year are playing for the title
Anyway. On to the staff predictions:
JDMILL:
UW 37 MSU 24
For the majority of this season Wisconsin has been able to do essentially whatever they wanted on offense, and their defense has been stellar too. In their 10 wins, Wisky is averaging 47.8 ppg, and giving up just 11.2ppg... that's an AVERAGE margin of victory of over 5 TD's in their wins. Even if you factor in those two losses, they still have a 4+ TD margin of victory. Those numbers are staggering. Coming from a MN fan this will sound crazy, but I'm actually disappointed Wisconsin lost two games this season because I think a potential BCS matchup of the Wisconsin offense vs the LSU defense would be fascinating.
In any case, Wisconsin is, at this moment, favored by 9, and I think they cover that. I believe Wisconsin wins 37-24.
...
BAMA HAWKEYE:
UW 38 MSU 17
Look at everything that had to go right for Michigan State to escape with a win when these teams met in October. I don’t see everything breaking Michigan State’s way twice in a row.
...
JON:
UW (no score predicted)
On one hand, Wisconsin is exactly two minutes in regulation* away from a perfect season and a coveted spot in the BCS national championship game. They have a colossal offensive line, two consistent running backs that eat up distance in neat 3-4 yard chunks, and a silky smooth passer, who happens to be a legitimate threat with his legs. When these component parts are in sync, the Badgers are truly an elite power. Their only weaknesses? Strong and athletic defensive linemen who can disrupt their interior running game, and offenses that can take advantage of an average Badger secondary. Michigan State has both. As the Spartans showed in East Lansing in Round 1 -- which should earn game of the year honors -- they have the gravitas on the defensive line to manage Wisconsin's downhill running game. Introduce William Gholston into the equation and the effect should be even more pronounced. They also have a quarterback that can pick apart the Badger secondary.
So why am I still picking the Badgers? Because lightening very rarely strikes twice and Russell Wilson is an intangible that I don't think the Spartans can completely account for. It's a close game -- and if it's half as entertaining as the first one -- we're in for a wild Saturday night. But ultimately, the Badgers punch their ticket to Pasadena, where they belong.
...
TED:
MSU 27 UW 24
Say this for MSU, they have exceeded everyone's expectation this season except their own. They beat Wisconsin earlier in the year when Wisconsin was looking like they were an all time great team, yet most everyone seems to just dismiss that as a fluke win. Why? They dominated Wisconsin for chunks of that game. Yes, Wisconsin came back...but so did MSU. And they won the game. I'm picking MSU, 27-24.
...
CHADNUDJ:
UW (a blowout – look at that shiny thing – have you seen my keys – I don’t have the remote!)
Wisconsin is 2 end-of-game plays (on the road, no less) away from, at WORST, being in the discussion for the #2 spot in the nation -- stop Braxton Miller from throwing a Hail Mary, and they beat OSU (seriously, how did that -- and by that, I mean Braxton Miller completing a pass -- happen?), and play a wee bit better on a Kirk Cousins Hail Mary and they go into overtime against MSU. (Credit where credit is due -- that game was tied, so even if Sparty's hail mary wasn't completed, the Badgers were facing a coin-flip odds to pull out a win in OT). Honestly, I think Wisconsin vs. LSU would have been a phenomenal game….but the Badgers didn't do well enough, so now we're all facing the Super Bowl of Oversigning, Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo.
Then again, Sparty managed to beat Wisconsin with Gholston sitting out a suspension….and they were clicking impressively throughout November.
My guess? Wisconsin plays with a chip on its shoulder over its earlier loss to Sparty, and avoids the mistakes (namely on special teams) to blow out the Spartans. There's just too much Montee Ball and too much Russell Wilson for Sparty to control the game a 2nd time. And it's just damn hard to beat a team twice in one year, especially when both teams are excellent (and let there be no mistake -- Sparty and Wisconsin are the CLEAR class of the conference, regardless of Michigan's 10-2 admittedly impressive record). Which, by the way, is why an LSU-Bama rematch is such a horrible idea (honestly, if Bama wins a close rematch on a neutral field -- are they really better than an LSU team that beat them AT HOME? Or is it just easier to get motivated for revenge? Conference title game rematches make some sense…but BCS rematches should NEVER happen if they can be avoided, and if OkState beats Oklahoma, they have a better resume than Bama in every respect, and deserve a title shot over a Bama rematch)
...
KENNARDHUSKER:
UW 31 MSU 27
Sparty won the first matchup on a miracle pass to the end zone with no time left. That does not mean that MSU 'miraculously' defeated Wisconsin. Sparty got up in Bucky's grill, and proved that they could play with the 'preseason juggernaut' that everyone expected to roll through the conference (me included). That game along with the rest of the season, proved that MSU was a force to be reckoned with. There was a setback in Lincoln, but Nebraska seems to do that to pass-first offenses (Iowa nods in the corner). I firmly believe that MSU is the best team in the B1G right now, and they will put up a fight on Saturday. With that said, I think beating a team twice in the same season is damn near impossible, especially the way the last one ended. Aren't these Championship Games fun everybody!!!
...
GRAHAM:
UW 35 MSU 28
In support of the area I live in, I would love to push a Sparty "upset" in the B1G championship. But picking winners is all about probability. It's probable that Wisconsin doesn't get a punt blocked and give up a Hail Mary. It's probable that Russell Wilson doesn't any ugly picks. It's probable that Wisconsin slows the Spartan run game and forces Cousins to win the game with his arm. So I'm going with Wisconsin, but I must say, MSU already has the blueprint and the players to score on Bucky. So it's no runaway.
...
MSULAXER27:
Purdue 1-11. Just kidding.
MSU (no score predicted)
At the beginning of the season, I was the only one who predicted this match-up in the B1G game. I picked MSU then and I see no reason to change my pick.
I think in the end, we have the irresistible force against the immovable object. I'm taking the immovable object.
I'm going to the game. Probably the biggest MSU game I've ever attended in my lifetime. I honestly don't care what final score turns out to be, just that MSU is the victor and the inaugural B1G TEN championship game winner.
...
* Jon's prediction led to the following exchange:
MSUlaxer27: But "On one hand, Wisconsin is exactly two minutes in regulation away from a perfect season " isn't correct. UW never led in the MSU game after 14:39 of the second quarter. Nor were they ever in a position with the ball to take the lead in the second half (unless you count the potential to go for two on their 4th and final touchdown of the game...that would have given them a 32-31 lead).
The hail mary prevented the game from going into overtime...if the pass was not completed UW would not have won the game.
Semantics, sure. Just tired of seeing the "two lucky" plays keep UW from the BCS championship game. The UW/MSU game this year was about as even matched a game as you could get.Jon: You're right, but it did certainly feel like Wisconsin had the momentum down the stretch, and, with Wilson firing on all cylinders, I would have given the Badgers a slight edge in overtime.
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The Ohio State University.
The ‘t’ in ‘the’ is capitalized. Bold and italics aren’t necessary but do add a nice touch, so good job on that, I might pick that up myself for extra emphasis.
Show them Ohio's here.
I chuckled when I read this.
You silly bastards.
by Fake Pelini on Dec 2, 2011 8:43 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sparty could win
But only if they get a point for every time a player feigns an injury…
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
"I thought it was laughable when you first put it up, but you were obviously smarter than me." - PurdueMatt
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Dec 2, 2011 7:20 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
Just remember, if your team can't beat them on the field,
Maybe you can beat them off.
by MSUDersh on Dec 2, 2011 7:59 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
The B1G title game is proving to be an economic disaster for the state of Iowa.
How many thousands of Iowa fans bought their game tix in the offseason for full value, only to unload them this week for $8 on eBay? That must suck.
"Everyone who drinks is not a poet. Maybe some of us drink because we're not poets." - Arthur Bach
I'd also like to point out at this moment
that Kirk Herbstreit had his preseason pick for this B1G Championship as Ohio State vs. Iowa.
It's funny, Nebraska also called them out on this... A trend maybe?
“We kind of laughed at each other like ‘Come on. What are you guys doing?’”
-Taylor Martinez on Michigan State’s multiple ‘injuries’ on defense
Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.
Author @ Off Tackle Empire
by KennardHusker on Dec 2, 2011 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No need to remind anyone: class doesn't exist in MSU football.
Regardless of Sparty’s sketchy ethics: On Sconnie! Go Badgers!!
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 2, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Your team's tactics amuse me.
Alas, Sparty is playing for the B1G title.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 2, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i rec'd the picture
not because it made me laugh but because you used it as proof that MSU has no class. lighten up
Show them Ohio's here.
by slidingscrapes on Dec 2, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
I'm weighted down by nothing.
MSU & Dantonio’s actions are fact.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 2, 2011 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
Indeed.
narneee narneee noo noo
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 2, 2011 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
35-21 Badgers
Ball & Wilson running and passing! And I think Wisconsin’s D is going to put a lot more pressure on Cousins this time – they didn’t do anything in that 1st matchup, gave Cousins all the time in the world.
Is Wisconsin's center going to play?
I can’t remember his name right now, but the loss of him with Gholston’s return for MSU could make a difference in the trenches.
I love these names
Kraig Urbik
Peter Konz
They sound like big (Finnish?) boys who would eat their dinner, your dinner, and then go after whatever’s left on the table.
Off Tackle Empire
The quintessential Big Ten smoking room.
by Graham Filler on Dec 2, 2011 8:47 AM CST up reply actions
And then there's
Bill Nagy
Ricky Wagner
Joe Thomas
Andy Kemp
They sound to me like big fat guys who will pull the plow in your corn field for hours, then empty out a Golden Corral in 5 minutes flat.
Author at Acme Packing Company
Bingo.
They wouldn’t just eat AT a Golden Corral. They’d eat the ENTIRE Golden Corral.
Author at Acme Packing Company
MSULaxer
made a great point. I too am sick of hearing how the Badgers are 2 minutes away from a perfect season. At least Jon admits it isn’t so.
I just hope all the ESPN slobbering and everyone picking UW 'without a doubt'...
…lulls UW players to sleep, and fires up the MSU players. Remember, EVERYONE at College Gameday chose UW to win (except for Mateen Cleaves)
Plus I am seriously thinking LOS will be heavily green. And UW is a different team away from Madison.
Regardless, it’ll be a slugfest.
I believe MSU
is also a different team away from East Lansing. Almost everyone in the B1G struggled on the road at some point.
by rzor on Dec 2, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not sure there is as dramatic a home/road split with MSU as with UW.
MSU had a 3-2 road record/UW 2-2
MSU lost at 8-4 ND and 9-3 NU-L/won at 6-6 OSU, 7-5 Iowa and 6-6 NU
UW lost at 10-2 MSU and 6-6 OSU/won at 6-6 Illinois and 3-9 Minny
UW struggling to beat a reeling Illinois team and a bad Minnesota team doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.
MSU nearly shut out OSU and beat both Iowa and NU convincingly.
MSU lost handily in it’s road losses, whereas UW lost close.
MSU lost handily in it’s road losses, whereas UW lost close.
If you’re going to go down, go down in flames, I guess!
Both
UNL & ND losses.
On a somewhat related note, we as sports fans often debate which is worse – getting so blown out that the game is in effect over midway through the third quarter, a la MSU @ UNL, most teams at Camp Randall this season, UNL at U-M this season, etc, or losing on a last second play, a la ND @ MSU last seaon.
IMO, losing at last second worse.
Uhhh,
Becky smashed Minnesota, it was Sparty that had trouble there.
MSU played Minny at home.
To clarify (as I used poor sentence structure): UW struggled before putting away reeling Illinois. They crushed 3-9 Minny on the road. Those are UW’s only road victories this year.
In effect, of their four road games: they beat two teams they should have and lost to one they shouldn’t have. I’ll take MSU as a toss-up.
I suppose you're not the only one guilty of poor structure...
there is meant as “struggle with the Gophers” not “struggle in Minneapolis”
That said, having my prism on this be as a Minnesotan, and saying this fully aware that the transitive property might not work real well in football, the team represented by a man in a foam suit didn’t look nearly as good as the team represented by a skunk in a popcorn box.
That's very true RE: B1G teams home vs. road.
Fortunately, the Spartans did comparatively well on the road this season – winning in Colombus & Iowa (where they hadn’t won since ’99 & ’89, respectively), plus being the first team to beat NW on Senior Day in two full classes. Only road losses on campuses that are historically very difficult for road teams to prevail.
Whiskey of course lost back to back at MSU & tOSU, beat a MAC school in a neutral site game in Chicago, and whupped the 10th & 11th team in the B1G at their venues.
So I would give a slight to moderate nod to MSU this season in on the road performance, but more importantly, I would say that Wisc benefits more from being at home (gave up no more than 17 pts in any home game) than MSU is negatively affected by being on the road.
And, technically, MSU is the host in Indy tomorrow . . .
Road losses
MSU’s two road losses were big, each by 3 scores. Whereas Wisky lost on two last second plays. I’d say that’s a fairly significant advantage to Wisky on the road.
And personally I think UW was still shaken by the Hail Mary against aOSU.
When they played Ohio State, to me, tells me more than the fact that OSU finished 6-6.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 2, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah in retrospect
I agree more with you, I suppose I was putting more stock into the seemingly huge home-field advantage that Wisc has at Camp Randall, given the blowout nature of their wins, than how tight their road losses were.
I do, however, feel that MSU’s road wins were bigger than Wisc’s, for the reasons I already stated. Though it can certainly be argued that MSU facing tOSU without Herron was a big advantage for the Spartans.
And unfortunately at 956 am, I was still drinking my coffee – didn’t switch to the harder stuff until 1700 GMT (raise a glass to happy hour in Dublin!!)
Counterpoint
Wisconsin’s road wins: Illinois (after they’d gone full Zook) and Minnesota.
MSU’s road wins: Iowa, OSU, Northwestern – all better than any of Wisconsin’s.
I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.
"I am seriously thinking LOS will be heavily green."
I certainly don’t disagree but what is this based on? I think it will skew green but I haven’t found anything that confirms this with any factual support.
not much to go on
but I’ve seen this reported several places, including this article.
Michigan State sold its allotment of 15,000 tickets. Wisconsin returned 1,900 of its allotment to the league office.
So
If Wisconsin beats MSU decisively (not saying they will, but if), will the MSU fans quit whining about how little respect they get? Or will the Michigan-to-the-BCS conversation still get them riled up?
by TDozer on Dec 2, 2011 10:47 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
They’ll still get riled up. They always do.
by ISleepwithaBuckeye on Dec 2, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
I would be angry at fate itself
Since this season we would have won the conference by the old standard and kept out by the extra game, whereas last year we would have benefited from an extra game.
/shakesfistatthesky
Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude
I'm a Badger fan and that would truly suck for Sparty and be cruel indeed.
No other way to describe it.
This
And technically we would have gone to the Rose Bowl last year if OSU was ineligible since we beat Wisconsin head to head. There is a lack of respect from the national media, but I give two shits about their opinions. Overall, I feel there is good respect from OTE. There is obviously different views of where our program is, but life would be boring if everyone was patting us on our back for the progress we’ve made.
I think that's missing the point a little bit.
If Wisconsin DOES win decisively — which, let’s be honest, is a completely legitimiate possibility — it doesn’t mean that Michigan State didn’t deserve respect. It’s a probability thing, right? More than likely, this is going to be extremely good, well-contested game. Just because it might not turn out that way doesn’t mean we can justify picking it to occur that way.
In other words, if we expect something to occur 70% of the time and another thing to happen 30% of the time, if we pick the latter and we’re right, it doesn’t mean we made the right decision.
I’m a die-hard Spartan fan and I’d probably take Wisconsin by 3 or something (for the reasons a lot of people outlined above – it’s tough to win two games against the same team when both teams are really really good). No State fan (should) have a problem with that reasoning. They get upset at the idea that people think it’s much more likely that Wisconsin wins in a blowout than anything else.
by The Birchman on Dec 2, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Edit
What I’m saying at the end of the first paragraph is, more or less, just because Wisconsin DOES win decisively, it doesn’t mean we were right for predicting that.
by The Birchman on Dec 2, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Holy shit
Did I contribute the most confusing/poorly-written comment in the history of the planet?
by The Birchman on Dec 2, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
I get your point.
I think the problem folks had with Sparty fans was that the whining seemed directed at the mere notion that people (most of whom were neutral) had the gall to think Bucky would win. I think it is absolutely fair to contest the notion that people are predicting a Bucky blowout as that’s not fair to Sparty’s (and Bucky’s) body of work.
In fact, I’m a Badger fan and I think Sparty will win a close one. Simply stated, I think Sparty matches up very well with Bucky and I still doubt (with good reason) our “death machine” abilities outside the confines of Camp Randall. I essentially see MSU as PSU with a vastly superior offense. PSU’s D hung with Bucky unitl their offense (and special teams) put them in too many compromised positions and they were ground into dust. If Sparty’s offense keeps their defense out of short fields and reasonably off the field, the defense and their physicality matches up well with Bucky’s strenghts. Bucky will still score points as will Sparty and everyone knows Sparty can get a decisive advantage in the special teams game. As such, I think it comes down to special teams and turnovers and I give Sparty a slight edge here. Note that if bad Cousins comes out and throws it all over the building this prediction is null and void.
I agree with all of that.
The only problem I had with any predictions was the writing off of MSU as “lucky” and the assumption that they’d lose in a blowout.
I lean the opposite of you though. I think Wiconsin wins a close one. Their offense has been about as efficient as can be (against MSU included) and I don’t think the State offense can go blow-for-blow with Wisconsin’s. If State doesn’t force Wilson into turnovers, they’ll get worn down over the course of the game, I think.
No
In fact, it was one of the more intelligent. Complex truths are difficult to explain.
by njd on Dec 2, 2011 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
Completely agree
Good post, too often people get wrapped up in results and outcomes when they needs to be thinking about processes and percentages.
This is only me speaking.
Except for when we play them I don’t really think about or care about UM.
I think some of us feel (justifiably) that after posting two of our best seasons in school history back to back, we may get shut out of the Big bowls twice for OSU and UM.
Especially, when by any objective measure, we are a much better team than UM this year (I know the BCS is not about merit but “fans”).
It’s maddening to me to hear KSU mentioned as a potential BCS at large when we (or whoever the loser of this game turns out to be) are being brushed off as an at large. Why? Because we lost two road games by 18 and 21 points? You know what sucks? Losing by 21 on the road. You know what sucks worse? Losing by 41. At home. And please don’t tell me KSU will travel better than MSU.
What troubles me, is what I feel is the animosity and contempt for our program and the things we are doing.
Maybe it’s because there were no internets back then , but when UW or Purdue or NU came out of their torpors back in the 90’s there wasn’t this negativity toward them…it was seen as a good thing, a feel good story that long suffering programs and fanbases were finally being rewarded for their perseverance.
I’m not searching for a chip to put on my shoulder, but I feel like everyone is waiting for us to trip up, so they can “put us back in our place”.
We’re the 5th or 6th largest school in the country. We have great facilities, a great athletic program, some very well respected coaches and executives so why shouldn’t we be here? Why shouldn’t we contend on a regular basis? I know I expect MSU to do so.
I think I see the problem here
What troubles me, is what I feel is the animosity and contempt for our program and the things we are doing.
Maybe it’s because there were no internets back then , but when UW or Purdue or NU came out of their torpors back in the 90’s there wasn’t this negativity toward them…it was seen as a good thing, a feel good story that long suffering programs and fanbases were finally being rewarded for their perseverance.
I’m not searching for a chip to put on my shoulder, but I feel like everyone is waiting for us to trip up, so they can "put us back in our place".
The problem isn’t that the rest of us don’t respect MSU. We do— you beat most of us, and it’s a solid team.
The problem is that you’re letting internet banter get under your skin.
People aren’t dumping on Sparty, waiting for you to trip up and “SPARTY NOOO!” because they actually expect it to happen any more than any other team. They’re doing it because it bugs you guys so much, and the sports blogosphere is all about finding effective ways of antagonizing the fans of other schools.
NU fans used to go crazy about the ‘jNW’ thing. We’d point to successful records (invariably, since 1995), head-to-head wins, and totally melt down when 2008’s 8-4 Iowa (which lost to Northwestern) jumped 9-3 Northwestern for the Outback Bowl. The Iowans especially got under our skins, because, dammit, don’t you know we’re better than that? Have you not been paying attention? This is not 1980 anymore!
And then… we got over it. We embrace it. We enjoy it.
MSU is enjoying success the program hasn’t seen in ages. Of course the rest of us are going to trash you guys. That’s how the internet works. Normally I’d be all for watching you guys get outraged over this stuff, but god, you’ve all gotten so whiny about it. Just make it stop.
I really think you all need to relax.
Note: The above relates only the internet reaction to MSU’s recent success. The big national media seems like it will never respect MSU, no matter how much success they’ll have. Even 1995 Northwestern— which had a built-in feel-good story— had national media coverage with shades of “This can’t possibly last, right? It’s fun this time, but seriously, Northwestern will never actually compete.” For anyone not named Michigan and Ohio State, ESPN & co. is a hopeless battle. I think most of us are used to that by now.
by TDozer on Dec 2, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I meant more nationally than on the internet.
It is after all the internet.
/shuts off computer
//leaves mom’s basement
///squints at the sun
////goes back down to the basement and turns computer back on
by MSULaxer27 on Dec 2, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Then in that case
I guess I don’t get why people seem so surprised that the national media doesn’t care about MSU/anyone else except their pre-selected favorites. This is not new.
by TDozer on Dec 2, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's the thing
At Wisconsin we’ve been doing this for about 20 years now since Alvarez came in. With a few exceptions, we’ve had solid, competitive teams since 1993, been ranked in the top 25 much of that time, played in 4 Rose Bowls, won 3 of them, had a Heisman Trophy winner, won relatively recent bowl games against highly regarded SEC teams (Auburn 2005, Arkansas 2006) … and after all of that, I feel that for the first time ever the national media has in the past 2 years (mostly since the epic win against Ohio State last year) started to respect Wisconsin as a football program. So, what I’m saying is that if MSU keeps doing what they’re doing, they can reasonably expect to be treated with respect by the media sometime around 2030. So they’ve got that going for them…
by BadgerInDC on Dec 2, 2011 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Can we now say that Wisconsin is an "Elite" program?
I raised this question in the offseason, and the general consensus seemed to be that Wiscy was still somehow relegated to sub-elite status. One commenter (believe it was Kyle McCann’t) made a good point in saying that Wisconsin was disqualified because if they went through a stretch of RichRod Michigan results, they would fall off the radar. However, I don’t think that’s true anymore. Something tells me that even if Bielema went 6-6 or 7-5 for the next three seasons, most of us would still circle the date on the calendar and that Camp Randall would remain one of the toughest venues to play in the country. At a minimum, doesn’t it feel like this program is at least on par with Nebraska’s cache – at least to fellow B1G members if not the nation as a whole? In my mind, this season cemented Wisconsin’s place as one of the conference and national elite, and I don’t see that aura fading any time soon.
I'm a Badger fan and maybe this is selling Bucky a little bit short but...
I’m not sure I consider us “elite” (at least nationally) until we at least make an appearance in the BCS title game. We may never make one but I can’t call us an nationally “elite” program with a straight face until we do so. If we had some historical national championships I would feel differently but prior to Alvarez we don’t have a lot of national historical success to fall back on.
Look at Oregon. I consider them “elite” and I think (playing styles obviously excepted) program success wise they compare to Bucky. They were a largely anonymous Pac-10 program until relatively recently (early 90’s) and have experienced solid, sustained success in the last 20-odd years with multiple BCS bowl bids. Given their stellar year last year and appearance in the title game, they’ve taken the step to “elite” that Bucky just has not.
I’m much more willing to entertain the “notion” Bucky is a B1G “elite.” I think we could make a decent argument in that regard given our track record of sustained success.
B1G Elite, no question.
I think you did a pretty good job outlinining the issue with being nationally elite.
The biggest issue, though, is how subjective it all is. I mean, some factors of elite are uncontrollable regardless of recent success — history (decades old, even) plays into it a ton. I think conference perception does as well (which admittedly hurts Wisconsin).
Overall, I’m a big fan of calling a team elite based on the recent successes overall. By that measure, even without a NC appearance, I’d definitely consider annointing Wisconsin elite — though I’m probably in the minority.
Good points...
…but I’m not sure that Oregon really has a stronger national reputation than Wisconsin in the eyes of an average ACC, SEC, or Big XII fan, despite the appearance in the title game. At least in my mind, when I think Oregon I still think gimmick – mostly for their uniforms – but if random SEC Powerhouse, Oregon, and Wiscy are all undefeated, I suspect more of the nation would be clamoring for an SEC – Wiscy title game instead of SEC – Oregon. It’s a very subjective call, and sometimes it’s hard to seperate the current success from the overall arch of the program, but it just feels like Wisconsin is building something special and permanent in the college football landscape.
by GTom on Dec 2, 2011 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Non-saturday games
I think Wisconsin hosting a non-saturday football game shows that they are not among nationally “elite” programs. You would never see LSU, Alabama, Florida, Ohio State, Michigan, Oklahoma, Nebraska, or USC host a non-saturday football game in order to attempt to garner national attention. Those programs already move the needle enough nationally that they don’t need to do such a thing. Also, their fans would go nuts if they had a game on a weeknight, just to get it nationally televised.
There are plenty of reasons Wisky's not a national "elite" but this isn't one of them
All college football teams have moved more towards playing games on days and times that maximize tv exposure. As recently as 10-15 years ago many “elite” teams never even played at night. Now every week the Saturday night game is “the” event of the week and I think every team in the above list played at least one night game.
And as one counter example to your “elite” list above regarding “non-Saturday”, just this year USC played a Thursday-night and Friday-night game.
I just don’t think its that big of a deal anymore as every team clamors for the spotlight regardless of pedigree.
by kmals on Dec 2, 2011 9:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
KSU's losses came to the third and fourth most potent offenses in the nation.
Sparty’s came to the 34th and 58th.
The BCS tends to not take the team that loses its conference championship game. This is why KSU is seeming to get projected to a BCS game more so than MSU is. It’s not a giant angry anti-MSU conspiracy, it’s just the way the BCS has worked.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
The issue with that is, of course, the fact that if KSU is being compared that way
Why the fuck isn’t Michigan?
I didn't say it was entirely fair.
But it sure as hell wasn’t fair to Mizzou when they lost two games all year, one being the conference championship, and got leap-frogged by Kansas. It’s just the precedent that seems to be set. MSU isn’t 2003 Oklahoma. If they don’t win tomorrow, they’re boned.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Sidewalk Alumni
No matter how big your university gets, there will always be way more people that aren’t affiliated at all with UM that root for UM than people that aren’t affiliated with MSU that root for MSU. Purdue suffers from the same thing in the state of Indiana.
It's more regional than you'd think.
Much of NW Indiana is solid Purdue territory. Outside the state, yeah, IU basketball/ND football have bigger “herp derp banners” followings, but instate is divided more along territory lines, especially in basketball.
"Hey Jay, what time is it?"
"9:30"
"AND IU STILL SUCKS!"
by Boiler Bandsman on Dec 2, 2011 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno, I feel like we're outnumbered everywhere
In the north it’s Notre Dame and in the south it’s IU. I see a Purdue fan and I automatically assume he attended the university.
Always is a long time
I wouldn’t be so confident about that.
by njd on Dec 2, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
I am old enough to remember when State was the real football program in Michigan, and the wolverines were also rans. You couldn’t hardly find a UM fan in the early 60s. Duffy was big and Bump was nobody, and blue and gold meant Notre Dame, as likely as not.
“Sidewalk alumni” tend to be heavy on front-runners.
Paul -
Go Sparty! Go Bucks!
by pmeisel on Dec 3, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
One of the weaker periods in Michigan history
And they still weren’t that far off from MSU in attendance (page 18):
fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2011/Attendance.pdf
And then as soon as Bo comes in they jumped back up. The big programs go through lulls, sure, but as soon as some coach comes in and gets them winning again they return to their normal spot.
go Bucky
I don’t see it as high scoring as most, and I don’t see a blowout, but I do see a solid Badger victory. Let’s call it 24-14.
by buckyor on Dec 2, 2011 11:15 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Well all.
I’m off to Naptown.
I’m just hoping PurdueMatt and the Boiler faithful don’t have a posse waiting for me at the border to ship me off to a “holding” cell in Gary where I will be disappeared.
See some of you at the game.
GO GREEN!
Most of this perception stuff
is driven by the national media in regards to conference, and the B1G is not perceived as a strong conference. A lot of that perception isn’t the fault of MSU or WIsconsin, it’s the fault of OSU and UM, and it started in 2006. When there was no rematch after the 1 v 2 game, both OSU and UM got throttled in their BCS bowls, OSU’s in the National Championship. They both followed that up in 2007 with OSU getting throttled in a second BCS championship game and UM losing to App State, and it’s been hell getting conference respectability back. Michigan going into the tank didn’t help, and OSU’s consecutive BCS wins were overshadowed by Tatgate.
I don’t say this to be an ass, because I don’t think it’s fair, but the strength of the Big Ten is based largely on how strong OSU and Michigan are perceived. If everyone else beats a crappy/average UM or OSU team, it’s not given as much weight if you beat a good/great OSU team, like Wisky did last year in Madison. When OSU/UM are considered in down cycles, the conference as a whole is considered to be down, like it is this year.
MSU and Wisconsin, unfortunately, are by products of that perception. Personally, I’d love to see Wisconsin’s offense up against LSU’s defense. I’d like to see MSU in a rematch against Alabama, as I think they’d have a fighting chance. But unfortunately, until the conference perception as a whole goes up, you guys probably won’t get the benefit of the doubt.
"Go hard. I mean, like relentless. I want a bunch of coaches that coach like their hair’s on fire, and I want a football team that goes for four to six seconds (per play) with relentless effort." OSU Coach Urban Meyer.
Every conference gets that
The SEC didn’t get its rep until AL returned to the top. If AL and FL both have a bad year, people think the SEC is down. The ACC will never get any credit until FSU and Miami are good, no matter how many games VT wins. The P12 is all about USC. The B12 is OU and TX. Why wouldn’t the B10 get the same treatment?
Why don't our team get no respect, PAWWWLLLLLLL
As a big-can’t-count fan in SEC country, I have a little perspective. This conversation is a lot like the Auburn fans that call whining about Alabama…..
MSU has a good team, consistently good since D’antonio’s arrival. But they were down since the days of Saban and Perles, and let’s face it, they weren’t the best team in the conference then either.
Wisconsin has been good since Alvarez. But never really dominant.
So in SEC terms, what we have here is Auburn and Arkansas wondering they don’t get the same respect as Alabama and LSU. Because you ain’t top ten 2 out of 3 years, that’s why.
But — there’s an opportunity here. MSU, Wisconsin, and Nebraska will never let Michigan and Ohio State dominate alone, again, I think.
Paul -
Go Sparty! Go Bucks!
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