B1G 2011 // Minnesota Football: Point/Counterpoint
by JDMill on Apr 19, 2011 8:00 AM CDT
in Minnesota
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PrintLast year's bottom dwellers in the B1G have more than just 2010 futility in common... they both brought in new coaches for 2011. In last week's Point/Counterpoint, Ricardo Efendi took a look at new Indiana head man Kevin Wilson, exploring whether or not Wilson and his staff have the goods to bring success to Indiana, or if Indiana being Indiana will prove to be too much for Wilson to overcome.
That piece created a lot of reaction, so I see no reason not to repeat that question and ask the same about Minnesota. The only difference is we'll flip the script and discuss potential failure before potential success.
Point: Minnesota has been Minnesota for too long. Underachieving and mediocre. Jerry Kill and his staff have proven they know how to win... but they've never had a challenge like Minnesota.
This isn't about Jerry Kill, it's about Minnesota, and a lot of people think that Minnesota just isn't a place where you can win in football anymore. It's not Kill's fault he'll fail.
The administration at Minnesota doesn't get it. The programs that pay the bills aren't there just to support the programs that feed from the teat of football. Joel Maturi is more interested in winning Director's Cups than he is in winning Rose Bowls.
Sure Minnesota dumped the Hump Dump and built a beautiful new stadium and sure they just ditched stuffy WCCO for their radio rights in favor of the more progressive KFAN, but it's too little too late. Minnesota just can't catch up, they're too far behind.
The best Jerry Kill can hope for is to get to the level that Glen Mason "achieved": beating four cupcakes in the non-conference, squeaking out two wins in the Big Ten, and heading to a low-to-mid-tier bowl game.
Counterpoint: Jerry Kill is the first real football coach Minnesota has seen since Lou Holtz. He isn't a blow-hard, he isn't here as a stepping stone, he's just here to coach and win. He will bring success back to Minnesota... but it might take a couple of years.
Tim Brewster's biggest contribution to Minnesota football was recruiting. In his first full year of recruiting, Brewster brought in more talent than Minnesota had seen in years. The problem is that he didn't have a hot clue what to do with it because he had never been a head football coach before.
Jerry Kill is just about the anti-Tim Brewster. He's pessimistic, honest, fiery and from a football standpoint he knows exactly what he's trying to accomplish. He doesn't walk around the practice field with his arms crossed, observing the team and lending encouragement where needed. He gets after it. He's in the middle of the play, in the middle of the huddle, he's running downfield to yell or offer praise and he's got his hand on the pulse of everything that is going on with his football team.
Jerry Kill knows what he wants to accomplish and he knows exactly how he's going to accomplish it. And perhaps most important of all, he's done it before. Jerry Kill would be coaching exactly the same way that he's been doing it his entire career whether he was at Minneapolis Southwest High School, Northern Illinois, or Alabama.
Jerry Kill's formula for success will bring Minnesota back to relevance in the B1G within 3 years.
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This week... |
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TUESDAY | Point/Counterpoint |
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WEDNESDAY | 4th and 3 |
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THURSDAY | OTE Potluck |
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FRIDAY | Keeping the Enemy Close - Rival Blogger Interview |
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Comments
It's just nice to have a real coach
Any reduction in double facepalm moments is greatly appreciated.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 19, 2011 8:42 AM CDT reply actions
Addition By Subtraction
Just being rid of Brewster is a positive step; Kill could show up for practice with brain damage, and it would still be an improvement.
by Midnight Rambler on Apr 19, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Joel Maturi
And Jamie Pollard should hang out and exchange theories on how to make things more laughable around campus.
by mikjones24 on Apr 19, 2011 9:01 AM CDT reply actions 4 recs
call it the "Who hates Iowa?" podcast
In the name of the Woody, the Bo, and the Mustache Ride. Amen.
by Pariahwulfen on Apr 19, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I would wholly approve of the FUCK CLEMSON podcast.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 19, 2011 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or double better yet
have Jacobi or Ross do a prank phonecall story…
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
I just remember that every piece of video of Tim Brewster during practices involved him having his arms crossed and observing.
It’s nice to have a coach who is in there actually coaching and getting fired up during practice about his players doing things the right way.
"We're talking about unchecked aggression here, Dude."
Off Tackle Empire
The Daily Gopher
absolutely
And not in an annoying way, in an awesome way. I had a JV coach who would get in a three point stance and run plays. No pads.
by grahamfiller on Apr 19, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Gopher football mired in suck.
As a Minnesota sports fan, it can be tough/impossible to get enthused about the U of M’s football program. But at least the Vikings are competitive on Sunday, and they aren’t going anyw…
by Midnight Rambler on Apr 19, 2011 12:32 PM CDT reply actions
To be fair
last week’s post only generated discussion because we decided to discuss instead the relative merits of Godfather I and Godfather II.
I’m (obviously) cheering against Kill, as Minnesota is the only Big Ten team I hope loses during either Bowl Season or March Madness. But I’d like to know a little more: whom is he recruiting (and how is his plan of attack different from Brewster’s)? What kind of offense will he be using? What kind of defense? Is he going the Brewster route and trotting out a spread? Deploying some funky (read: neither 4-3 nor 4-4) defense that the top half of the league will shred on a schematic basis alone?
http://www.offtackleempire.com/ I write there
by Ricardo Efendi on Apr 19, 2011 12:57 PM CDT reply actions
I'm guessing
that he runs the same plays he ran at NIU. And by that I mean, everything. Thanks to having a veteran QB and some talented wide receivers, plus a decent line, they ran the following plays consistently:
Zone read runs
Normal I formation
Deep passing routes from the Shotgun formation
I don’t know if his playbook will be so deep with M Gray in 2011 though…
by grahamfiller on Apr 19, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
That's what I was thinking.
Which is to say Minnesota will be mired in the middle of the Big Ten for the long-term. :)
http://www.offtackleempire.com/ I write there
by Ricardo Efendi on Apr 19, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
Kill’s been pretty positive of Gray so far. Regardless, at least he’s actually playing him at, you know, QUARTERBACK.
The fact that Kill gets kudos for putting a kid recruited to play quarterback at the quarterback position tells you how mind numbingly idiotic Brewster is.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
Here's a breakdown...
…from the best non-SBN Gopher Blog, FBT.
Kill’s Schemes: http://fringebowlteamblog.com/?p=2622
Breakdown of Quarters Coverage: http://fringebowlteamblog.com/?p=2821
Kill’s Use of Tight Ends: http://fringebowlteamblog.com/?p=3125
Quick summary? No funky schemes on either O or D. On offense they like to create mismatches through formations, personal, and pre-snap motion. Tight Ends are primarily blockers, though that may be different this season given that the 2nd best receiving option is a TE. It’s a run first offensive mindset. Kill also prefers mobile QB’s. On defense its about being aggressive and not making stupid mistakes.
For recruiting the key is speed. At previous stops, Kill has often put speed ahead of other measurables (similar to Gary Patterson at TCU…pretty apt comparison given their coaching history together). His approach with offers is much different than Brew. Brew was quick to hand out an offer. Kill is not. When possible it seems like he prefers to see a kid at his camp so he and his staff are working off more than just film. Also, Brew delegated a lot of the final recruiting decisions to others on his staff (much of it fell to his recruiting coordinator) while Kill wants the evals and recommendations to be done by his position coaches/coordinators. I think he has said he reviews every offer first though. There is a greater focus on finding guys who fit their system rather than simply pursuing the highest rated guys. Kill doesn’t strike me as someone who will be affected by the recent NCAA ruling banning coaching staff use of Rivals.
And my use of FBT...
…should not be read as a swipe at the great work JDMill and the crew at TDG put out. I simply recalled FBT’s breakdowns and was able to find them quickly via teh Google. :)
nice work
Chandler Harnisch excelled under Kill because of all the things you just mentioned, i.e., his strengths being maximized.
by grahamfiller on Apr 19, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks
very helpful
Author at Off Tackle Empire
and Errant Pass Downfield
@RicardoEfendi
by Ricardo Efendi on Apr 19, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Also
I don’t know that Kill, or really anyone for that matter, has a shot at ever turning around Minnesota. Not only does Wisconsin suck out of the state whatever homegrown talent there may be, Minnesota will always be a hockey-first state. This isn’t a dig or flame (I’m can never decide which sport I like more)- but when the state’s natural athletic talent is already tilting towards the ice rather than the gridiron, you’re not left with much of a base to build on.
http://www.offtackleempire.com/ I write there
true to an extent
hockey and hoops are where most of Minnesota’s natural athletes seem to gravitate to. However some pretty solid football players have come from this state. ND has a pipeline into Cretin Derham Hall, which is where a lot of the stud football talent seems to come out of.
And Iowa's natural talent wrestles
yet they can compete in the Big Ten. No one thought Hayden Fry could turn Iowa around, and no one thought Alvarez would turn UW around. It can be done, it’s just going to take a lot of hard work and no-nonsense coaching.
Of which Kill seems to have a warehouse full of.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
by Ted Glover on Apr 19, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
The difference being
lots of people both wrestle and play football. In fact, back in high school, half our team wrestled.
Few people, if any, can manage both hockey and the gridiron.
Author at Off Tackle Empire
and Errant Pass Downfield
@RicardoEfendi
by Ricardo Efendi on Apr 19, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Most of the top level hockey players...
…specialize at an early age now. That may cut into the overall talent pool somewhat, but IMO you over estimate that effect. The top skill kids in MN tend to come from the cities and the “hockey first” mentality has never seemed as strong to me in the metro area public schools. And the guys who play in the trenches really aren’t playing hockey so there isn’t a conflict there.
Sure, I might be overestimating it
but I think you hit the nail on the head- hockey is a culture in and of itself, and for that reason alone some of the talent pool will be dried up a bit. I have an admittedly biased perspective, but I’m comparing this to Wisconsin or Ohio where football is really the only thing in town August-January (yes, that’s an indictment of the Brewers), whereas there’s competition for the limelight in Minnesota.
To the other point that you raise below (proximity to Chicago), UW has far more players from the Twin Cities than they do the land that smells like skunk.. I don’t know that plays much of a role if any.
Author at Off Tackle Empire
and Errant Pass Downfield
@RicardoEfendi
by Ricardo Efendi on Apr 19, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, Northwestern can't get ALL those 2 star prospects from Chicago, can they?
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 19, 2011 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, Chicago is the nearest...
…metro area to IA and WI that MN just isn’t close to. Basically what I was trying to say is that MN is hindered by geography not because of weather but because it’s just a little bit farther to the Midwestern talent pools. Is that a huge problem? Probably not (winning should overcome it just fine). But it’s a primary difference to distinguish between otherwise similar talent pool/recruiting schools like IA and WI.
As for the hockey talent pool/football talent pool. I think what I was trying to say was that it is a complete unknown and probably impossible to quantify and thus is hard to factor in. That said, it is pretty easy to see that you’re talking about drying up the talent pool from a select group of athletes. It shouldn’t affect the O-Line/D-Line prospects at all (for obvious reasons) and, at the risk of opening a touchy can of worms, it is much less likely to affect the talent pool among non-white players. Lastly, as hockey minded as the state is, its not like loving hockey automatically means kids choose it over other sports. To go anecdotal, in my hockey happy hometown in MN the best FB playing athletes all played basketball and ran track.
The thing is...
Can there be room for another solid program with Iowa and Wisconsin being where they’re at right now? There’s not a lot of talent that those teams can split from that area and still be nationally relevant like Iowa and Wisconsin. Adding Nebraska to the mix… it’s gonna be tough.
Maize-Colored Glasses: This Was Quite the Year...
I think...
…it’s more likely you see cyclical up and down periods for each program if Kill is able to get things going for MN.
...but Iowa and Wisconsin don't recruit talent...
They recruit guys who fit their system, and that’s what Kill’s doing too. Boise State has an even shallower talent pool, but they’re dominant. I don’t think having successful Iowa and Wisconsin teams precludes the Gophers from pulling a good team together on a talent-basis
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
True to a point...
…but “system guys” alone won’t win B1G titles or Rose Bowls. You still have to bring in some (not lots, but at least some) high end talent. And there is simply less of that in the immediate recruiting bases of those 3 schools for each to load up in their backyard only. Especially since other B1G schools, Notre Dame, etc also recruit there.
Hogwash
Considering what Jerry Kill did with NIU, beating two of the last three B1G teams he’s played (Won @ PUR 08, Lost 20-28 @ WIS ’09, Won @ MN ’10) I think the whole “Shallow MN/IA/WI Talent Pool” argument gets tossed. Kill did better than Minnesota could with a Master Recruiter and part-time Snake Oil Huckster
There’s a huge divide between recruiting talent and developing talent. Kill has shown he knows how to do the latter. On top of that, high recruiting scores don’t translate to college success. Eric Decker was a walk-on and easily the best player we’ve had in 5 years and probably the best receiver to wear Maroon and Gold.
Consider me gettin high on the Kill-ade…
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
And don't think I'm not drinking it either...
…but pretending that NIU beating 2 of 3 in the NC slate over 3 seasons versus winning the B1G title is foolish. I’m not saying he can’t pull it off with only well developed 2 and 3 stars. I’m saying that his chances of success are much higher if you sprinkle in a few 4 stars or (if lucky) an ocassional 5 star per class. This assumes that these are guys who fit his system, but given his track record I highly doubt Kill gets “star struck” and picks a kid just because of his ranking.
Every time someone takes a statistical look at recruiting rankings they find a definite relationship between higher ranked talent and overall success levels. There is no guarantee that highly ranked classes pan out, but on the whole, teams that assemble more talent tend to do better.
Decker is the ultimate outlier. You can’t use him as evidence because he isn’t representative of what typically happens. What I’m trying to say is that this isn’t a black and white issue. It’s not “rankings are all that matters” versus “coach ’em up.” I’m saying that Kill’s great success developing players is more likely to result in sustained success for the program if some of the players he develops are 4 stars or better.
The 28-20 Wisconsin game is kinda like the 38-30 MSU-Wisconsin game from 2009.
The score appears close, all right, but the game itself wasn’t. Same would apply to the 29-22 Wisconsin-Illinois game in 2007 (damn you Rashard Mendenall) and the 12-0 Iowa-Minnesota game from 2009.
Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Apr 25, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Boise is dominant because they play
in a terrible conference and can recruit above average guys that play against below average competition.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
Two losses in three seasons = dominant
Also, six of eight wins against ranked teams.
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
But their limited # of games against BCS schools has to factor in...
I’m not one who thinks Boise doesn’t deserve to be ranked highly each season b/c of their schedule because I am in agreement that you can only beat who you play. But I also don’t think you can look at their team and assume one big non-con win over a BCS team and a bowl game win over a BCS team automatically translates into being good enough to actually be the champions of a BCS conference.
Put Boise in the B1G
and get tape on them, they would be exposed, much like RRod’s spread was. They just don’t have the overall talent to match up week in and week out.
Boise is good, and they can beat a BCS power in a close game with a month to prepare, but put them in a BCS conference where the talent is much higher and it’s every week, no way they stay in the top 5 or 10.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
Well, maybe the Big East. =)
I forgot about that abomination of a conference. But this is what I was getting at.
Solid takeaway about the Big East :)
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
"with a month to prepare"
I think there’s a lot of truth to this. I’d guess they truly prepare for the best teams they’re going to play, and that preparation just happens to be more than enough to beat the team they actually have to play next week.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Apr 21, 2011 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Hockey first state...
…shouldn’t have a huge bearing on FB at all. The “losing good FB players to hockey” thing isn’t something that has proven to be real prevalent to my knowledge (Mark Alt would be the recent glaring exception and he was always considered a better hockey player anyway). The bigger issue IMO is that while MN has a similar talent base to WI and IA, we don’t have the same proximity to the recruiting territory around Chicago.
But to be honest, there is no reason MN shouldn’t be able to create teams of similar talent/success to what WI/Iowa has come up with over the last 20 years. There are plenty of reasons why that hasn’t happened, but all of them are reversible and have nothing to do with MN being a “hockey first” state.
Second that
Hockey State First has no bearing on football, because they’re not competing at the same time in High School. Football’s in the fall and Hockey’s a winter sport, and most hockey kids play both.
Body size and type might be exclusive, since smaller bodies tend to succeed in high school hockey, but the Midwest isn’t known as a LB/CB/Safety hotbed anyways, so it’s besides the point
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
Iowa has more than decent recruiting appeal out east, beyond B1G borders east
Almost near equal geographic distances Karl Klug from Caledonia MN was not offered a ride from ISU or the Goophs. Meanwhile KF and the DOYLE in IC send Klug to the league for what will probably be more than just a solid career. No question Iowa gets the most from their players of any team in the B1G or the USA.
Hawk fans see it with our instate bball talent, for decades Iowa’s best basketball players have not gone to Iowa choose nationally respected powerhouses.
I’ll always miss Tim Brewster.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Apr 19, 2011 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions
When that YouTube video ended
did you catch any of the other ones? There was a Kill mic’ed up one that lasts around :25. The RB gets strung out and tackled for a loss, and is kind of laying on the ground. Kill’s yelling ‘get up and run to the huddle!’ Lying down’s a sign of weakness!"
Then he runs up behind him and whispers, “I still really like you, though.”
I think I’d run through a wall for a coach like that.
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
Yeah, check it out
Pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4r3Bb7vqBA
"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."
BRING BACK BREWSTER
I will always believe Ski-Mah-Poo needs more Brewster, like the only cure for a fever they’ll always be infected with: Minnesota needs more Brewster
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Apr 19, 2011 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions
The U is releasing a great series of webisodes...
…that do a great job of introducing the program under Kill and the coaching staff in detail:
Webisode 1: First Spring Practice
Webisode 2: Defensive Coaches
Webisode 3: “I’ll trust what you do”
Webisode 4: Offensive coaches
It’s part of a great little partnership between the U and a local film company:
University of Minnesota Athletics, in association with 3 Penny Films, is producing a series of brand-new football television shows and webisodes chronicling the beginning of the Jerry Kill era.
Four 30-minute shows and weekly webisodes are being produced in a reality-based, documentary-style production that will give Gopher fans a never-before-seen look at the inner workings of the Minnesota football program. “Minnesota Football: Seeing Is Believing” will chronicle the Gophers’ journey from the first day of spring practice through the kickoff of the 2011 season.
“Minnesota Football: Seeing Is Believing” is not a typical behind-the-scenes-type show. While it gives fans a look behind the scenes, the show is more about the stories of the people who make up Minnesota Football.
Weekly webisodes will be available on GopherSports.com and through Minnesota Athletics’ social media channels. Weekly webisodes are posted every Tuesday, leading up to the first game of the 2011 season.
The four 30-minute “Minnesota Football: Seeing Is Believing” television shows are slated to air later this summer on Fox Sports North and the Big Ten Network.
Here's today's webisode
Focuses on Conner Cosgrove, son of our previous DC, who is battling Leukemia right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcgrYr_iTEc&feature=channel_video_title
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