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B1G 2011 Point/Counterpoint//Come August, OSU Will Be Up The Creek Without A Paddle. Unless, Of Course, They Aren't

The hot topic for the B1G this off-season should have been the addition of Nebraska and all the things associated with that:  great, storied program coming to a great, storied conference, the new divisions (names aside), and a conference championship game.

Uh, no.

When it was first reported that several Ohio State players had received free tattoos in exchange for sports memorabilia back in December of 2010, it seemed like a fairly serious, but straightforward and not catastrophic deal.  Things like this happen on a regular basis in college football, and virtually no program is immune to these kinds of problems.  The players involved were probably going to be suspended for a few games, they would have to pay for the benefits they received, and life goes on.  At the time, the biggest controversy was that the players involved were allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl, after Bowl officials and B1G Commissioner Jim Delany lobbied NCAA officials on the players' behalf.  Yeah, if only that had been the biggest controversy.

Were it only that simple. 

Point:  OSU's day of reckoning is nigh.  They ran fast and loose with the rules, their coach lied to the NCAA, and they give a new definition to the phrase 'Lack of Institutional Control'.  They are going to be justly hammered with a three year bowl ban, and a substantial reduction of scholarships over the same period of time, if not more.

But not long after OSU's thrilling Sugar Bowl win over Arkansas, reports started coming out of Columbus that became more ominous by the day.  The first was that Jim Tressel had known about the tattoo issue in April of 2010, and committed the cardinal sin of lying to the NCAA about it...for over 8 months.  Tressel's hold on the head coach position seemed to get more tenuous by the week, and when Sports Illustrated came out with a cover story that was essentially a hatchet job to get Tressel to resign, Tressel resigned on Memorial Day.  OSU hater, I'm not defending Tressel and his cover up by calling this story a hatchet job, but it was.  There were virtually no new allegations, the story went back to his days at Youngstown State, and every 'source' for that story had dubious creditability issues, at best. 

But I digress. 

Star-divide

Soon, allegations came out that players received free cars, and that seemed to be confirmed when Terrelle Pryor rolled up to a team meeting (the one Jim Tressel announced his resignation at) driving a Nissan 350Z sports car with dealer plates on it.  It just felt like OSU was not only breaking the rules, but giving the college football world the finger while doing it.

A few days after that, it was alleged that Pryor received up to $40,000 for signing autographs from an individual named Dennis Talbott.  In NCAA parlance, that's essentially pay-for-play, and that's about as bad as it can get.  SMU got the death penalty for that back in 1987, Alabama got hit hard with sanctions because of it, and USC just got hit pretty hard for that as well.  And it wasn't just Pryor, but multiple players:

The parent of one former Ohio State player told "Outside the Lines" that he saw Talbott provide what he called "stacks of money" to active Buckeyes players, including a player now in the NFL.

If Terrelle Pryor or anyone did receive any money, much less 40 large, for capitalizing on his status as an Ohio State football player, the NCAA is going to come down firecely on the Buckeyes, regardless of how cooperative the University has been in the investigation, whether they self reported or not.  There's just no way somebody in the University didn't know about this.  No way.  And since OSU disassociated themselves from Dennis Talbott midway through the 2010 season, it looked like they knew. 

Free tattoos for jerseys evolved in to an iconic coach having to resign for trying to cover up the tattoo controversy amidst free cars for everyone and a play for pay mentality rampant in the program.  Something at OSU is terribly, terribly wrong.

Throughout this whole process, there has been blood in the water for Ohio State. A lot of people want to see Ohio State made an example of, and the press coverage has been relentless.  Pick up a paper or go to ESPN, you would get the feeling that OSU had kidnapped the Lindbergh baby, killed Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, and for good measure, made a sex tape with Casey Anthony. 

And oh, the press conference.  That disastrous, terrible, what-the-fucksaw-was-that car wreck that played out live for the world to see.  When the news hit that Tressel knew of the allegations eight months before the NCAA was told about them, OSU AD Gene Smith, President G. Gordon Gee, and Jim Tressel held a press conference to try and 'stay ahead of the story'.  They not only didn't stay ahead of it, but the firebreak they hoped would occur only consumed them more. 

Smith stonewalled any serious question that was asked, Jim Tressel mentioned 'federal drug investigation' and 'OSU football players' in the same sentence, and not only DIDN'T Tressel apologize, he very diplomatically gave everyone a defiant kiss my ass.  And when Gee said 'I hope Jim Tressel doesn't fire me', it screamed of a program gone WAY off course, and the NCAA was indeed going to make an example of THE Ohio State University.  It was a disaster in every sense of the word, and it looked like OSU was not only guilty, but they were hiding a lot more and it was only a matter of time before something even bigger and more scandalous was going to hit the street.

Look at what happened to USC.  They were playing fast and loose with the rules, players (or family members) were getting paid because of their status as USC football players or relationship to said players, the head coach had his head in the sand, much like Tressel seemingly did...only he didn't lie to the NCAA.  And that's the kicker.  Tressel LIED to the NCAA, which when you boil everything down to the core, is the central issue here. 

Lying and covering up is what's going to get OSU hammered, because the NCAA will not be made a fool of.  It doesn't matter that they do that to themselves on a daily basis, but by God, no one else will do that to them.  The head coach was cheating, not an assistant, not the water boy, not a booster funneling money to a player without anyone knowing about it.  That makes the whole program dirty by default, and THAT takes LOIC to a new level.  Players were running around Columbus with their hands out, taking anything and everything they could get, and Tressel, as the titular head of the program, willingly turned a blind eye to almost all of it.  By willful ignorance, he created an environment in which all of this could not only happen, but flourish.  $40,000...for signing autographs, and no one knew?  How can that NOT be LOIC?

But it's not that simple, because nothing is that simple.

Counterpoint:  OSU haters are reading everything they believe, and when the NCAA infractions are announced and they aren't nearly as bad as everyone thinks...nee, HOPES they will be, there will be a lot of outrage about 'getting away with it'.  Only, they aren't getting away with anything.

Okay, let's separate the wheat from the chaff in this.  What OSU is going to be judged on, assuming there are no changes to what the NCAA has investigated to this point, is outlined in what we call an NCAA Notice of Allegations.  The one the NCAA gave to OSU alleges eight very specific and pointed allegations, including:

1)  Selling of memorabilia, to include jerseys, gold pants, and championship rings for tattoos, and getting discounts fort tattoos because of their status as Ohio State players.  There are seven of those allegations.


2)  Jim Tressel not being truthful to the NCAA when he found out about these activities going on, and knowingly letting players that should have been ineligible to play in games.

That's it. 

Notice you'll read nothing in there about cars, Pryor (or anyone else) getting money for signing autographs, lack of institutional control, failure to monitor, the murdering of innocent babies and impaling them on spikes, starting a world war, nothing.  Now, could the NCAA come back and re-investigate OSU if they find some credible evidence to those allegations?  Yes, of course they can.  And could they issue another Notice of Allegations or amend the current one?  Yep, they definitely could (Well, I don't think they can amend the current one anymore.  There was a July 5th deadline to do that, and to my knowledge, it was not amended.  But they can still issue a new one if they want to).  And if that crap was going on, I'll be the first guy to say OSU should get as severe a punishment as possible short of the death penalty (no program deserves that).  Make no mistake, I want Ohio State to kick your team's ass, but I want them to do it fairly and above board.  But right now, all of the white noise regarding everything that isn't associated with these allegations have been just that, white noise.  Let's look at it:

The additional allegations of up to 20-some players getting free tattoos as opposed to the original five were made by a convicted felon who has a drug problem and has been in and out of jail, an unamed source, and a former player with a tremendous axe to grind against OSU.  The sources for the SI story were so shaky The Columbus Dispatch, a paper that has been pretty harsh towards the Buckeyes in this whole affair, chose not to run with the allegations.  Is it possible that these might later be proven to be accurate?  Sure.  In the beginning of the steroids scandal that engulfed baseball, no one initially believed Jose Canseco, and everyone believed Rafael Palmeiro and Roger Clemens.  But right now, there are 50 pieces of additional memorabilia that could have been sold by those players in question, and 48 of 50 are accounted for.  So it looks like there's not much to that allegation, at least for the time being.  And the parents for two of the additional players, John Simon and Storm Klein, are so upset about what they consider to be false accusations, they are considering legal action against Sports Illustrated.

As to the free cars, the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles has cleared the players and dealers involved of any improper benefits or discounts to the players in every single transaction.  Every one.  The investigation on that has been closed by the University.

As to the most damaging and damning of these allegations--Pryor receiving $40,000 for signing his autograph--let's just say that is hotly disputed.  The website Sports By Brooks claimed there were checks from Talbott to Pryor that were deposited into Pryor's bank account, and that the NCAA had cited the University with 'dozens' of payments, but Pryor's attorney said that was not true.  And he said so pretty adamantly, with a defiant tone you usually don't find in someone who is trying to hide guilt.  To date, there have been no 'smoking guns' produced in terms of cancelled checks that would prove that allegation, nor has the NCAA amended their notice of allegations to Ohio State to add this infraction to the list.  I would think that if this paper trail did exist, as SBB alleges, it would have been easy to find...yet the NCAA has not done anything with what would easily be the most serious of all these allegations.

So, let's compare and contrast the poster child that everyone is holding up to condemn OSU with, and that's Southern California under AD Mike Garrett and Pete Carroll.  The USC sanctions are harsh, but those penalties were meted out due to problems in three athletic programs, two coaches, two players from different sports, OJ Mayo and Reggie Bush, and an athletic director that tried to block and obfuscate the NCAA investigation at every turn.  When the NCAA issued their findings against USC, they said, in terms of declaring a LOIC:

When citing the lack of institutional control finding, the committee noted the university failed to heed clear warning signs; did not have proper procedures in place to monitor rules compliance; failed to regulate access to practice and facilities, including locker rooms; and in some instances failed to take a proactive stance or investigate concerns. As a result, three different individuals who triggered NCAA agent rules committed violations involving the former football and men's basketball student-athletes.

There are no agent issues with any OSU players, and when you get to the heart of it, it's still five guys on the football team getting improper benefits, with the coach lying about it.  The coach has resigned, and the players in question have either left the program or will be suspended for five games, and will probably have to pay some sort of restitution.  And OSU has been cooperating with the NCAA at every turn.  As soon as they found out about Tressel's deception, they reported it to the NCAA, and have given the NCAA everything they have asked for.  With everything except the tattoo scandal seemingly resolved, the compliance issues aren't nearly as bad as they seemed a month ago, there are no access issues, and OSU has been very proactive in this whole investigation.  

In the end, will any of it matter?  Tough to say.  I think you can make a legitimate argument on either side for or against the LOIC.  If the NCAA Finds that there was a lack of institutional control, OSU will get slapped pretty hard.  If the NCAA deems that this was an isolated incident between Tressel and a few players, they'll get probation, forfeiture of wins, and maybe a one year bowl ban, but that's it.

This is just my opinion, but I think the NCAA told OSU on the down low that if Tressel was still the coach come August, the penalties would be harsh, because they allowed him to remain in place after committing what many people feel is the one thing you can't do to the NCAA, especially the head coach.  But I also think they told OSU that if Tressel was no longer the coach, they would take everything else in consideration (full cooperation, self reporting of everything, no new allegations (hopefully)) and go relatively light on the Buckeyes.

No matter how the NCAA decides, though, it won't be good enough for a lot of people.  Those of you that want the death penalty will be sorely disappointed, as will those of you who feel Tressel really didn't do anything wrong.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle of that, and assuming that there aren't any more allegations that the NCAA slaps OSU with, and come August all we're dealing with is what's in the current Notice of Allegations, I think the punishment will be lighter than most people anticipate.

But that's okay, because the Oregon situation is about to blow up, and they'll make OSU look like choirboys. 

And there will be enough faux outrage for everyone.

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Ohio State has a ton of talent and both Wisconsin and Penn State at home

Turmoil, new QB, new HC, a lot of nice pieces to replace from last year, but they don’t lack talent and get probably the two (other) best teams in the division at home. I’m a long, long way from counting them out this year.

is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

by ckmneon on Jul 6, 2011 8:15 AM CDT reply actions  

Right now, it's hard to believe

that OSU will be down for long, even if they get hammered with a multi-year postseason ban and scholarship reduction. While I hate to keep comparing them to USC, I’m going to anyway.

Two years ago, before USC’s 9-4 season and Pete Carroll getting the hell outta Dodge, it would’ve been tough to have foreseen the trouble they’re in now. After the decade they had just gone through, it was easy to think they’d get through anything. But I think after the whole NCAA mess went down, the problem was with their coaching. Kiffin’s not the one to get them back to where they were, and I don’t see them “coming back” anytime soon with him at the helm.

But I think that’s where OSU differs from USC. I think that even after this whole mess, after a couple of years when the smoke blows over, premiere coaches (coughcoughURBANMEYERcoughcough) will be chomping at the bit to get the job. Short term, I think the NCAA throws the book at the Buckeyes, if only because they think they have to, even if they don’t know they should. Long term though, by the end of the decade or shortly after I’m sure they’ll be in good shape again.

by Skerz90 on Jul 6, 2011 8:25 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm taking the opposite tack in terms of punishment

When this first broke, I really thought OSU was Scuh-REWED. But after doing all the research for this, I think the NCAA will temper the punishment on these allegations to keep their poweder dry. Remember, what they’re looking at is fairly narrow, and that’s Tressel’s lying and the Tat 5. Tressel is gone, the Tat-gate players have been punished, so most of what the NCAA could do regarding the current Notice of Allegations has been done, other than put OSU on probation and make them vacate wins, which they’ll do. Scholarship reductions? I don’t think so, and I don’t see a post season ban.

What I fear is that although they might go relatively light on this, they’ll hand OSU another Notice of Allegations in a few months that deals with the cars and the under the table money that Pryor reportedly received from Talbott. And they will crawl up OSU’s ass for months. Just because the Ohio BMV and the University closed their investigation, that doesn’t mean the NCAA has. And just because the Univesity and the Ohio BMV said there was no wrongdoing doesn’t mean the NCAA will look at it in the same way.
If OSU got so much as a $5 break on a car deal, that’s an improper benefit in the eyes of the NCAA, and it’s a punishable offense.

And if they find anything, the slightest thing, they can HAMMER OSU for being a repeat offender, and then the punishment will be something akin to what the Spanish Inquisition meted out.

"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."

The Daily Norseman
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by Ted Glover on Jul 6, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

Well, when we’re discussing the NCAA and what they will or won’t do, I can’t dispute your logic at all.

"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire
SB Nation Minnesota

by Ted Glover on Jul 6, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did you know?

Minnesota was found guilty of academic fraud with a paper trail of 400 papers written for athletes, payments for tutors and still did NOT get LOIC.

by biggy84 on Jul 6, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Turns out they did...

From Wikipedia

…During this time an NCAA investigation was also underway. Ultimately, it emerged that massive fraud had occurred under Haskins’ watch. The NCAA stripped the Gophers of all postseason awards, titles, personal records, and statistics dating back to the 1993–94 season citing a “lack of institutional control.” Haskins was also slapped with a seven-year “show cause” order, which effectively banned him from coaching at any level in the NCAA until 2007. Besides lying about the $3,000 payment, he had also told several of his players to lie to the NCAA.46 Later, the Big Ten forced the Gophers to vacate their 1997 conference title, as well as all regular season games dating to 1993–94. As a result, Minnesota’s official record from 1993–94 to 1998–99 is 0–0…

When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic

by Marshmoose on Jul 6, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

…in a few months that deals with the cars…

Still beating this dead horse?
This is the most unlikely of the unproven allegations to come true.

by ProveIt on Jul 7, 2011 5:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I could have seen the U$C struggles coming.

For realz, they lost their entire LB corps, the Sanchize (lulz) and some amazing DL (Sedrick Ellis, Fili Moala, Lawrence Jackson). In their case, the 5 stars didn’t match up to the previous guys; Galippo could never match up to Matthews, Rivers, or Maualuga (heck, he might never eclipse Maiava), and those pre-09 predictions that had U$C in the Rose Bowl were absolutely INSANE.

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
"If you don't tell him what he wants to hear, he's going to find you out. And when he does, they're going to tear your head off and throw your BODY OUT OF AN AIRLOCK!" - Number Six, "Bastille Day"

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jul 9, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

As of right now, with no amendment to the NOA

I cant see how there will be any scholly reductions, as there were no recruiting violations. Vacate last seasons wins, probably. Post season ban, doubtful, as its not really warranted. Couple years probation, absolutely.

With the #1 overall pick in the Rapture Draft, God chooses the Macho King Randy Savage

by BuckeyeSki on Jul 6, 2011 9:35 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't recommend projecting rationality or consistency on the NCAA

What you’re saying is reasonable, but “reasonable” isn’t typically how the NCAA rolls. If it were, Alabama and Auburn would have seen the death penalty a couple times in the last 20 years and college football would have playoffs.

is there anyway i can redeem myself, i was not sure if i should say "we" at that moment
by Skins4ever on Feb 2, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

by ckmneon on Jul 6, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cant/Won't Disagree with that

it will all depend on where the NCAA’s “Wheel of Punishment” lands

With the #1 overall pick in the Rapture Draft, God chooses the Macho King Randy Savage

by BuckeyeSki on Jul 6, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Credibility issues

Sure the people accusing OSU have credibility issues. But what about the people defending OSU?

If there is cheating going on, the players—even the straight arrows—can’t admit it: they want to play football and they want their team to be able to succeed.

We’ve already had a chance to assess the integrity of the coaching staff. If the head coach is a liar, what does that say about the rest of the staff? (That’s why what Tressel did is so bad: he represented the university. He’s a liar. The president of the university didn’t think that was bad enough to fire him over. The facts say that the OSU athletic department lied, and the president of the university joked about it. Why should we believe anything OSU says?)

And then there are the fans, who say, “We didn’t do it,” and “Everyone does it,” which if you look at it closely, is obviously self-servingly contradictory.

Remember this, NCAA process isn’t legal process. “Reasonable doubt” isn’t at issue.

I don’t know what happened at OSU. You don’t either. The NCAA will be guessing, too, so what happens will be unpredictable.

As an academic, the person who comes off worse to me is President Gee. Either he’s completely inept (my guess) or the main purpose of tOSU is sports. Either way, it stinks.

by patrickdolan on Jul 6, 2011 10:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Imagine that

a tsun fan talking smack about OSU. If you don’t know what happened at OSU, then why the first 3 paragraphs?

Tressel did not represent the university! Actually read the NOI. Tressel was cited, NOT the university. As an academic, you should research before you speak.

by biggy84 on Jul 6, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Only a delusional Ohio State fan

Could possibly say, “Tressel did not represent the university!” Ohio State University paid him several million dollars a year to run its football program. I don’t know what “represent” means to you, but I’ll bet before people found out about his lies, you’d were happy to say he represented you. You’ll be happy to claim his record over Michigan and the BCS bowls in the future, I’ll bet. No, “Well Jim Tressel didn’t represent us when we beat all those teams,” from Buckeyes fans, I predict.

When your university president says, “I hope he doesn’t fire me,” we can infer the person referred to represents the university. That’s where Gee’s ineptitude lies. An employee of his lied to him in a way that’s fucked over the university. (I’ve fired an employee for lying with less serious consequences. Because, you know… it’s wrong. And, if you don’t fire a person for lying, what does that say to your other employees?) Ohio State is in fact a great university. I implied that in the last sentence of the post. You might go back and reread that since you missed it. But Gee’s comments at the press conference portrayed the university president as a gofer for the football coach, which is pretty inept for a man who, wait for it, represents the university.

I’ve read the NOI. Tressel is a liar and he lied so that ineligible players could play. Then he lied about why he lied. That’s uncontested. The question is whether his lies were so obvious and so extensive that LOIC comes into play. That’s what we don’t know. We further don’t know what the NCAA will decide that tOSU “knew or should have known,” which to my mind is what got USC hammered. I think you guys better hope that the compliance office can document that it paid attention to the program. For example, it doesn’t mean shit what the Ohio BMV says about the cars, if the compliance office says, “We checked and everything was on the up and up,” and it turns out they didn’t.

Who do you think I’m a fan of? I teach at a Big Ten university. I’ll give you a hint: the football players here ride around on Vespas.

by patrickdolan on Jul 6, 2011 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe you can understand this

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/04/25/ohio-state-ncaa.ap/index.html
The university was NOT cited. The LOIC was NOT issued. I seriously doubt you are a teacher. Read and learn before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

by biggy84 on Jul 6, 2011 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I love you tell everyone to read the Notice of Allegations

then link to a story that only summarizes the NOA and take the article’s summation as gospel. If you actually go to the NOA linked in the piece, it is quickly apparent that OSU is very much in the cross-hairs. In particular, if I were an OSU fan, I’d be most worried about numeral section 11 (pages 6-8) in the NOA: the bullet-pointed information requested strongly suggests that the NCAA is going to curtail total scholarship numbers/amounts available as well as some cut-backs on recruiting.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jul 8, 2011 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe you can understand this

I am reading the actual NOA, not news reports. I notice some things.

The NOA is addressed to the President of the Ohio State University, not Jim Tressel.

The NOA asks the Ohio State University to provide imformation about its athletic compliance office, its athletic department, and its athletes, not simply Jim Tressel.

The NOA indicates that sanctions will be leveled against the university, not Jim Tressel alone. (I shouldn’t assume. Suspending players, to me, punishes the team and the university, not simply the players. I guess if you worked hard enough, you might say that not being able to play starters isn’t an institutional penalty. The word for that is “special-pleading.”)

In short, the NOA addresses the university, demands information from the university, and threatens the university with sanctions because of the behavior of one of the university’s employees, acting as one of the university’s employees. (If Jim Tressel wasn’t a representative of tOSU, then his access to student records violates FERPA in an obvious and major way.) Again, to say, “the university was NOT cited,” as you do, is surely special pleading, and obviously delusional.

Here’s the teachable moment: when you’re arguing about what a document means, don’t cite secondary sources. Cite the primary documents.

Now, Ohio State will probably maintain that Jim Tressel was a rogue employee, that no one could have known what he was up to, and that he victimized the university. And, who knows, they may be right. Maybe the compliance office has records indicating that they were on top of things. Maybe the paper/email trail will indicate that OSU’s compliance was up to snuff in spite of what Sports Illustrated (the source you sent me to up above, so I guess they must be credible, eh) says about their lack of oversight about cars, or Tressel’s communications with people outside the U about Pryor’s situation. I freely admit I don’t know what’s in OSU’s files. I assume you don’t either. I also note that its in the financial interest of the NCAA to deal with OSU lightly. So maybe they’ll simply vacate the wins accomplished with ineligible players, and cite Tressel. It’s not what I’d predict, but weirder things have happened.

by patrickdolan on Jul 7, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

As someone who was at tOSU at the end of Hollbrook's tenure...

I can say Gee has been a phenomenal university president. So he may have somewhat botched a press conference about sports or made a stupid quote about TCU. Big deal. It’s an academic institution and Gee, who has served as chancellor of Brown and Vanderbilt, is a phenomenal University President.

by TheHumbleBuckeye on Jul 6, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Gee

Check out how he has raised academics since he has been there. He is in charge of the largest university in the US with great success.

by biggy84 on Jul 6, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Raised academics"

By most ratings (they’re bullshit, but bear with me), Ohio State locates itself near the middle of the pack academically. Ohio State instance this as evidence that President is a great university president. Tell me, if Ohio State’s football team was fifth in the conference, tied with Purdue (see the ratings below), would you be telling us how great your coach was?

That’s what’s wrong with the athletics/academics balance. The people who have the power are far more tolerant of mediocre academic performance than they are mediocre athletic performance.

Unless tOSU was truly awful when Gee got there, which I doubt.

by patrickdolan on Jul 6, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry

That should read, “the middle of the pack in the Big Ten.” Really, once you get past Northwestern, Michigan and Wisconsin, most people in the business think they’re about the same, give or take. That means, by the way, they’re really, really good places to get an excellent education, but maybe a tad off the very best public and private universities. Which is no small thing. (If I wanted to be a writer, I’d go to Iowa. If I wanted to be an engineer, I’d go to Purdue. If I wanted to be a musician, I’d go to Indiana. I don’t know what I’d go to OSU for, but there’s a nationally prominent department or two there, for sure.)

by patrickdolan on Jul 6, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

OSU only started to care

about academics during Gee’s first term as president in the early 90’s, which continued under Holbrook and continues today through Gee’s second term. He made a complete ass of himself and a joke of the university with that one line during the press conference, but as an OSU student who has witnessed this firsthand, I will defend Gee’s performance as president of the university (save a certain press conference) to anybody. I could begin listing things he’s done for the university, but I’d bet that it would come off as biased ass-kissing and no one would really care anyways, so let’s just say that from an informed perspective of the most important demographic—the ones who are paying $20k a year to attend—Gee has done a superb job as president.

Show them Ohio's here.

by slidingscrapes on Jul 6, 2011 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I admire your defense of him

One of the problems university presidents face is that athletics usually aren’t part of their core competences. And if he’s improved the educations and lives of OSU students, as well as the intellectual life of OSU, his ineptitude at the press conference is, as you suggest, very forgivable.

It didn’t help his or OSU’s image outside the community, of course, but that will pass as long as the fundamentals remain strong.

If you’re a current or former student, your opinion on Gee’s performance matters way more than mine does.

by patrickdolan on Jul 7, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

In the grand scheme of things

perception is reality. When he uttered his infamous phrase in the March presser, it was perceived that the University was part of the football program, not vice-versa, and that really helped feed the image that OSU football is/was a program out of control, and no one in the administration gave a damn.

I know Gee was joking, and I also know that he has done a lot of great things as OSU president. But he did almost as much damage with that one sentence, and it really, really reflected poorly on him and on the school.

"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire
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by Ted Glover on Jul 6, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Damage to who?

Those that already hated OSU? Those pious souls that already hated Tress and thought he was evil? In academic circles, do you think Gee is any less regarded?

by biggy84 on Jul 6, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, not at all

But more to the casual observer. With the hardcore football fan, their minds were made up about OSU long before this hit the street. But the casual fan, that follows once in awhile…your average Northwestern fan, say…it affects how they look at the program.

"Lord I pray for the eyes of an eagle, the heart of a lion and the balls of a combat helicopter pilot."

The Daily Norseman
Off Tackle Empire
SB Nation Minnesota

by Ted Glover on Jul 6, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

To which I say:

Chinese, Japanese, Look at these:

With the #1 overall pick in the Rapture Draft, God chooses the Macho King Randy Savage

by BuckeyeSki on Jul 6, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jealous are we?

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

  • disclaimer*** I don’t put a lot of stock in rankings, but I know other people do, so that’s why I linked to that.

How about all those University of California branches (six of them) in the Top Tier? I imagine once everyone realizes that the State of California is bankrupt, they will fall. Maybe not Berekeley or UCLA, but the rest are sure to fall when they are forced to do away with the “free in-state tuition” after the State is officially bankrupt.

by TheHumbleBuckeye on Jul 6, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

UCLA SUCKS!

Editor at BT Powerhouse, a Big Ten Basketball blog.
Author at Acme Packing Company, a Green Bay Packers blog
"If you don't tell him what he wants to hear, he's going to find you out. And when he does, they're going to tear your head off and throw your BODY OUT OF AN AIRLOCK!" - Number Six, "Bastille Day"

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Jul 9, 2011 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

The answer to your question is

Yes, absolutely. I imagine that there are people in the various academic departments at tOSU that are really pissed off at him. As for the rest of academia, well, they know how tough it is to run a university with an athletic department, but yes, after his performance this year, he is less well regarded.

by patrickdolan on Jul 6, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

But what about the people defending OSU?

LOL! Can’t find anything of substance to add to the infractions, so you look for the unsubstantiated?

But what about the people defending OSU?

Given they were private e-mails sent to 1 person and shared with nobofy…
It says absolutely nothing about the rest of the staff.

The facts say that the OSU athletic department lied.

This is an exaggeration – the facts are 1 coach lied.
If you had a valid point, you wouldn’t feel the need to exaggerate.

And then there are the fans, who say, "We didn’t do it," and "Everyone does it," which if you look at it closely, is obviously self-servingly contradictory.

This is a false characterization. Most fans say they were guilty and the punishment should and will fit the infraction. Most of the comments the “Everyone does it” came from outside the OSU fan base.

The fans do reject the overt exaggeration used by those like yourself.

Remember this, NCAA process isn’t legal process. "Reasonable doubt" isn’t at issue.

Cam Newton is enough proof they hold a high burden of proof.

I don’t know what happened at OSU. You don’t either. The NCAA will be guessing, too, so what happens will be unpredictable.

Perhaps vacated wins. Much to your dismay, nothing more.

The NCAA is more consistent than given credit – the perceived arbitrary actions they take are usually a result of not understanding the NCAA rules and/or process, or not knowing all of the infractions.

by ProveIt on Jul 7, 2011 5:32 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Excellent!

Nice explanation Provelt!

by biggy84 on Jul 7, 2011 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

We'll see

I think what should scare OSU is the “or should have known” in the USC decision. Again, we don’t know what’s in the files provided to the NCAA since the NOA. Maybe they show that the compliance department was working its tail off, and that the institutional controls were circumvented by an unusually clever and accomplished singular liar. Maybe they show that the compliance department wasn’t really interested in finding anything out, something that’s been alleged in the press without conclusive proof. Maybe it’s somewhere in between. If it’s in between, which I think is likely, then the NCAA has to make a judgement, and that judgement will be complicated by the financial interest it has in OSU’s football program (see the Sugar Bowl decision, or the Cam Newton case) or the fact that if they don’t hammer OSU there will be a great deal of (informed and uninformed) outrage. We’ll see.

I don’t really care all that much what happens to OSU. The scumbag in all of this is Jim Tressel. The punishment for OSU is this: they discovered that Jim Tressel lied to them on January 13; he admitted it to them January 16. It took five months and several rounds of press revelations for them to get around to letting him resign. Everyone knows this and everybody remembers how OSU talked about his probity and virtue up to the point where it couldn’t anymore. Whether or not they play in the National Championship game next year will not erase that from people’s minds. Jim Tressel did that to OSU; OSU let him.

by patrickdolan on Jul 7, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think what should scare OSU is the "or should have known" in the USC decision.

OSU should not be concerned with the USC decision.
Prior to uncovering the e-mails, their compliance department was recognized by the NCAA for its vigilance. Uncovering Tressel’s e-mails when there was no ongoing investigation only adds to this perception. USC’s compliance staff was found to be ignoring infraction reports.

…the institutional controls were circumvented by an unusually clever and accomplished singular liar.

Another exaggeration – it is neither unusually clever nor accomplished to not report knowledge.

If you have to exaggerate to support your assertion, you don’t have a well supported assertion.

something that’s been alleged in the press without conclusive proof

This is an understatement. Since the original Tressel e-mails were revealed almost every assertion by the press has been shown to be highly exaggerated or completely false.

Again, we don’t know what’s in the files provided to the NCAA since the NOA. Maybe they show… Maybe they show… Maybe it’s…

Another person who can’t find anything of substance to add to the infractions, so you look for the unsubstantiated?

If you have to reach for the imaginary to support your assertion, you don’t have a valid assertion.

the NCAA has to make a judgement, and that judgement will be complicated by the financial interest it has in OSU’s football program (see the Sugar Bowl decision, or the Cam Newton case) or the fact that if they don’t hammer OSU there will be a great deal of (informed and uninformed) outrage. We’ll see.

Prepare your “I am shocked and outraged speeches” now because those like yourself won’t be satisfied with the sanctions.

There is no evidence the NCAA diminishes sanctions based on economics. It has modified how they are implemented (moving back the suspensions until after the Sugar Bowl) for a combination of competitive and financial reasons, but they weren’t dropped.

I don’t really care all that much what happens to OSU.

This is a lie – if you weren’t concerned, you wouldn’t be using exaggerations and false characterizations in an attempt to lend credence to unsupported assertions.

The punishment for OSU is this: they discovered that Jim Tressel lied to them on January 13; he admitted it to them January 16. It took five months and several rounds of press revelations for them to get around to letting him resign. Everyone knows this and everybody remembers how OSU talked about his probity and virtue up to the point where it couldn’t anymore.

This is a false characterization. The OSU fan base has a history of balancing a coaches good deeds with the bad – reference Woody.

Despite your exaggerations, the downside of the Vest is that he did not reveal knowledge 2 players had broken NCAA rules, under the request from a federal investigator the information be kept confidential – not a position anyone should be placed in. This isn’t going to override the good things he has done on and off the field, no matter how exaggerated and colorful the criticisms become.

Whether or not they play in the National Championship game next year will not erase that from people’s minds. Jim Tressel did that to OSU; OSU let him.

The infraction was uncovered by searching Tressel’s e-mails – OSU didn’t let him do anything.

by ProveIt on Jul 7, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The OSU fanbase

Has a history of being just exactly like every other fan base, no worse and no better.

If you ever run a business, what will you do when you discover that your highest paid, most promoted employee lied to you? Keep him on and make jokes about it?

Once the NCAA gets done with OSU, assuming there’s not another NOA, the worst is over. The players and coaches will work with what’s there, and the university will go on.

The idea that Jim Tressel lied about the eligibility of his players for any other reason than to play them in games is silly. He didn’t keep the investigation confidential, he emailed Sarniak. In any case, he never talked to the investigators. He got an email from Cicero, a lawyer who was violating his professional ethics to protect OSU football. The only duty he had was to do his job and tell the truth.

by patrickdolan on Jul 8, 2011 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

If you ever run a business, what will you do when you discover that your highest paid, most promoted employee lied to you? Keep him on and make jokes about it?

Why yes, after dolling out what I felt was fair punishment, I would keep my most productive employee.

Once the NCAA gets done with OSU, assuming there’s not another NOA, the worst is over. The players and coaches will work with what’s there, and the university will go on.

Trying out for the drama queen award, or another futile attempt to beat the dead horse?

A completed investigation and possibly vacated wins will not impact the team.

The idea that Jim Tressel lied about the eligibility of his players for any other reason than to play them in games is silly. He didn’t keep the investigation confidential, he emailed Sarniak. In any case, he never talked to the investigators. He got an email from Cicero, a lawyer who was violating his professional ethics to protect OSU football. The only duty he had was to do his job and tell the truth.

So? Aside from irrelevant…

Given your history thus far of exaggerations, false characterization, and attempting to play the drama queen… there is no reason to place any stake in your interpretation.

by ProveIt on Jul 8, 2011 3:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Put your money where your mouth is

If you can prove that Tressel was following the request of a federal investigator to keep quiet about his players’ relationship with Rife, I’ll send a $20 check to the Ohio State children’s hospital. If you can’t, say so.

Instead of abusing each other, let’s make a bet. Here it is: you predict the penalty Ohio State gets. It sounds to me as if you think all it will be will be vacating the 2010 regular season wins. Am I reading you right? If you’re correct, I’ll send a $20 to the OSU children’s hospital. (We’ll leave out penalties that are strictly for Tressel himself, i.e., show cause.)

I think OSU will get its wins vacated, and there will be significant scholarship reductions (more than 10, over three years or less) and that there will be a post-season ban of one year or more. If you agree to the bet, and I’m right, you send a $20 check to the OSU children’s hospital. Or Mott in Ann Arbor, you choose.

You really would continue to employ someone who lied to you on more than one occasion? I find that really perplexing.

I’ve made an offer of a wager. I’m done with this.

by patrickdolan on Jul 8, 2011 6:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Some more examples...
If you can prove that Tressel was following the request of a federal investigator to keep quiet

Another example of looking towards exaggeration and citing the unsubstantiated because you can’t find enough in the infractions.

If you had a valid assertion, you could back it with the known, not unbacked inferences.

Instead of abusing each other…

It is the only entertainment you have to offer.

The abuse given you is no more than the abuse you have given the truth.

Valid assertions stand with the clearly stated evidence at hand and do not require exaggerations and inference to support.

It sounds to me as if you think all it will be will be vacating the 2010 regular season

From the response letter, so does tOSU.

Given that you have been fast and loose with the truth, attempting to bend it with exaggeration and false characterization, claiming a lack of concern before volumes of words, I have no reason to believe you.

You really would continue to employ someone who lied to you on more than one occasion?

Yes, I wouldn’t fire someone who, in your words was “your highest paid, most promoted employee” over 1 incident.

Perhaps if you exaggerated a bit more here, you might make you point at least sound valid.

I find that really perplexing.

What you find perplexing is trying to develop new ways to exaggerate to support your assertion.

Unfortunately, the facts aren’t changed by colorful language and exaggerations.

by ProveIt on Jul 8, 2011 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's what you said

“Despite your exaggerations, the downside of the Vest is that he did not reveal knowledge 2 players had broken NCAA rules, under the request from a federal investigator the information be kept confidential.”

I say the statement about the federal investigator is false. Can you prove it? Yes or no?

by patrickdolan on Jul 8, 2011 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

What part?

The investigator requesting confidentiality is part of the e-mails.

Your asserttion the request for anonymity played no part of the Vest’s later actions is conjecture.

by ProveIt on Jul 8, 2011 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW

From your response, I gather you’re not taking the bet. I thought not.

by patrickdolan on Jul 8, 2011 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I might take a bet...

…if the other party showed some integrity.

It is a good tactic you are now trying red herrings……not much chance you can deny exaggeration, false characterizations, and attempts to substitute conjecture for fact in your comments.

I love it when people play forum slots, dumping in $48 in tokens in hopes of a $2 payout.

But in the end, all that stands is what the author summarized
1) Selling of memorabilia… and getting discounts.
2) Jim Tressel not being truthful to the NCAA when he found out about these activities…
That’s it.

No amount of exaggeration, false characterization, or inference will change the facts.

by ProveIt on Jul 8, 2011 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some facts

Here is the Columbus Dispatch’s story on Tressel’s emails and phone messages: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/04/25/0425-more-emails-from-tressel-released.html. Notice that Tressel 1) Did not keep the investigation confidential. He told Sarniak and 2) Did not fail to inform OSU and the NCAA “under request from a federal investigator,” (your words) because he never talked to a federal investigator. If you have any proof that Tressel talked to " a federal investigator," and received such a request, produce it. If you don’t, admit it. If you produce the proof, I’ll send the check. Look at it this way, all you’ve got to do is supply a link to a credible source. If you do you’ll have proved me wrong and there will be a nonzero chance the hospital gets the money. One thing you’re not wrong about, if Tressel were asked by a federal investigator to keep the matter confidential, it would change how people understand his behavior.

If Tressel was asked by a federal investigator to keep things quiet, I’d expect OSU’s response to the NCAA to mention it. I’ve just read the response. Any idea why they left it out?

by patrickdolan on Jul 8, 2011 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

So?

I only replied to your false assertion the federal investigator did not request confidentiality.

If you have any proof that Tressel talked to " a federal investigator,"

I never claimed he talked to an investigator.

The e-mails exchanged are a matter of record, reference April 16th in which the investigator notes “What I tell you is confidential”

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/documents-read-the-actual-jim-tressel-emails-29547
These can also be found in reporting the violation to the NCAA, I only posted the 1st link that came up on Google.

The hospital thanks you for the check.

…and in the end… so what?
1. It is not pertinent to the NCAA investigation
2. Like all good and bad, when looking at the Vest;’s record It is taken in balance by OSU fans – the frame in which I clearly noted it.

If Tressel was asked by a federal investigator to keep things quiet, I’d expect OSU’s response to the NCAA to mention it

This is the stupid places you find yourself in when you attempt to substitute logic and reason for fact and truth – this was shown above and in the reports.

You were doing better when you stuck with exaggerations, false representations, and pure conjecture. Attempting honest portrayals does not appear to be part of your skill set.

by ProveIt on Jul 8, 2011 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um, you still haven't proven your point

the emails you linked to are redacted as to the identity of the person emailing (I believe these were later discovered to be Cicero). And nowhere in the emails does the person (again, Cicero I believe) say that he is a federal investigator, only that “a lot of my friends are in law enforcement”. The idea that this person is anyone other than Cicero is further undermined in a subsequent email where the emailer states that Rife had been in his office to talk – again this is presumably Cicero (and he’s violating attorney-client confidentiality).

I know that since I’m not an OSU fan that means I am just a hopeless hater, blinded by my own jealousies of your program. But it seems to me of the two people in this debate, yourself and patrickdolan, it isn’t Mr. Dolan that is guilty of “exaggerations, false representations, and pure conjecture.” But what do I know, I’m just a hater?

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jul 9, 2011 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Awesome - another enters the fray...

While it is true Cicero was not a federal employee (my bad) he was privy to information of an ongoing federal investigation, and did request confidentiality.

So feel free to substitute “Federal Investigator” with the above and it changes… nothing. The same concerns with interfering with a federal investigation still exist.

On this pull of the handle, you get your change back.

…none of which changes anything.
1. OSU fan’s opinion of the Vest will not change based on Cicero’s employer (the context I brought it up in).
2. It still isn’t relevant to the investigation.
3. The infractions remain as summarized by the author:
Selling of memorabilia… and getting discounts…
Jim Tressel not being truthful to the NCAA…

Exaggerations, false representations, unbacked inferences, red herrings, and even preemptive cries you might be called a hater won’t change the facts.

by ProveIt on Jul 9, 2011 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

The only false representations going one here

are your repeated assertions that Tressel was told to keep the information he learned confidential on orders from a federal investigator. Above, you state


the downside of the Vest is that he did not reveal knowledge 2 players had broken NCAA rules, under the request from a federal investigator the information be kept confidential – not a position anyone should be placed in.
which, to me, reads as though you are attempting to justify, albeit slightly, Tressel’s failure to inform either the AD’s office or the OSU compliance staff; in other words, that Tressel was put in an untenable position because he couldn’t tell anyone about what he knew.

But this is demonstrably false. First, even if the information had come from a federal investigator, the fact that such information was shared with Tressel would have broken confidentiality privileges. Second, even assuming the first part, that did not change the fact that Tressel had the obligation to report it, and should have run it by the OSU counsel’s office (OSU’s in-house attorneys) to at least get guidance. But that’s pure hypothetical because, third, there was no privilege or confidentiality because the information came from an outside party and, fourth, Tressel shared that information anyway. So yes, changing from “Federal Investigator” does change things – nice try to basically abandon the earlier thrust of your argument – but even if it did, it still does not change the fact that Tressel, and thus OSU (see any introductory discussion of agency on why this is the case), failed in his duty to report it. Then, to compound the initial error, lied about it multiple times.

And it is that deceit and active cover-up on the part of Tressel that is what is at issue. And you’re the one fixated on the red herrings, picking subsidiary issues out of much larger posts to fixate on and “refute”. And you flat-out lie when you say

I never claimed he talked to an investigator.
. You’re right that who Tressel talked to is largely irrelevant, but you are the one who insisted on treading down that path and when caught, tried to play it off as “oh, it doesn’t matter”. Nowhere in your posts do you even attempt to address the main thrust of patrickdolan’s comment. The truly ironic part of that is the fact that patrickdolan takes a rather lenient view of OSU in this case, if you’d bother to respond to his actual thesis you’d realize that he is saying that, without additional evidence showing the administration knew or was so incompetent as to prevent them from learning what they should have known, then this falls almost entirely on Tressel and the repercussions for OSU will likely be minimal, i.e. essentially what OSU has self-imposed.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jul 9, 2011 3:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Please enter 4 tokens and try again.
are your repeated assertions that Tressel was told to keep the information he learned confidential on orders from a federal investigator.

This is a lie. I credited you for pointing out it wasn’t a federal investigator but a defense attorney with inside information who requested confidentiality. No exaggeration or false representation.

Unfortunately, if you track back to the original context, it is also irrelevant. Sorry, but you already got your tokens back on this one.

ch, to me, reads as though you are attempting to justify,

Since you are a late entry, you might consider backtracking to the original introduction – it will save you from writing 5 paragraphs as a counterpoint to… nothing.
No justification for the Vest’s actions was presented, only how it balances in some fan’s views.

you are the one who insisted on treading down that path and when caught, tried to play it off as "oh, it doesn’t matter".

This is false – I never claimed it didn’t matter.

If you have to make up an OP to counter so your assertion seems relevant, you are countering nothing relevant.

Please enter 4 tokens and try again – I love it when others play forum slots, inserting $48 in tokens in hopes of a $2 payout. Even Pat didn’t bother to deny he was exaggerating, etc.

by ProveIt on Jul 9, 2011 5:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Once more

1. You said Tressel kept quiet because he was asked to by a federal investigator.
2. When confronted with documentation proving that statement false, you said, “I never said he talked to a federal investigator.”
3. When confronted with your own words, you admit that you misspoke and then claim, “it changes nothing.”
4. Meanwhile, you call everyone who disagrees with you liars and fools.

I think this is pretty typical of what you’ve done with other issues, and not at all uncommon among Buckeyes (and other programs’) fans faced with learning stuff about their program that they wouldn’t have believed a year ago. (Seriously. A year ago, would you have believed that multiple Buckeyes players sold their gold pants? For tattoos? I wouldn’t.)

For the record, I have said nothing false and I have tried my best to fair to OSU and the parties involved. Take that as an explicit counter to “Even Pat didn’t bother to deny he was exaggerating, etc.” You’ve consistently minimized the significance of the facts, and frequently said things that just weren’t true, in response to reasoned argument and documentation.

You better hope that Gee and Smith do a better job in front of the NCAA panel and going forward. If they advocate as poorly as you argue, OSU is well and truly fucked.

by patrickdolan on Jul 9, 2011 7:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Please enter 4 tokens and try again...
1. You said Tressel kept quiet because he was asked to by a federal investigator.

It is part of the facts some fans take into balance when they look back on the Vest;s career.

Assertions this was not a factor in his actions are conjecture.

2. When confronted with documentation proving that statement false, you said, "I never said he talked to a federal investigator."

This is true – correspondence was by e-mail.
3. When confronted with your own words, you admit that you misspoke and then claim, "it changes nothing."

This is true – the lawyer’s employer does not play a factor in how some fans balance their opinion.
I think this is pretty typical of what you’ve done with other issues

I am consistent – I base my conclusions on the evidence and facts, not exaggerations and false representations of the facts or the OPs comments.
Seriously. A year ago, would you have believed that multiple Buckeyes players sold their gold pants? For tattoos?

Yes. I hold little respect for the decision process of late teens and early 20-somethings.

I have said nothing false and I have tried my best to fair to OSU and the parties involved

This is false – you only need look back at the last topic of my previous statement.

Hint – if you are going to deny your statements, let a few comments pass 1st, not be most of the previous statement.

You’ve consistently minimized the significance of the facts

This is false – I minimize those who rely on exaggeration or changing the OPs comments to make their point – the facts stand on their own.

If you don’t like your lies, exaggerations, false representations, and/or false statements of the OP viewpoint pointed out, then don’t post lies, exaggerations, false representations, and/or false statements of the OP viewpoint.

…in response to reasoned argument and documentation.

It takes little effort to string together some plausible sounding statements to make any assertion sound reasonable.

But logic and reason do not equate to fact and evidence. After all, it was once logical to believe the earth was the center of the universe based on reasonable observations of the night sky. Likewise few would consider it logical that an object’s velocity would effect its passage of time.

Countering facts and evidence with logic and reason is a fool’s errand filling its creator with false confidence in the accuracy of loosely or unsupported assertions. No turn of phrase will change a lie to a fact.

I prefer critical thinking basing the conclusion on the evidence and facts, not trying to bend the evidence and facts to support the assertion (or in your case, bending the comments of the OP to make your remarks relevant).

You better hope that Gee and Smith do a better job in front of the NCAA

A criticism about presenting fact means nothing coming from yourself.

by ProveIt on Jul 9, 2011 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

I don’t know if you noticed this, but in #1 above you seem to be asserting that “Tressel kept quiet because he was asked to by a federal investigator,” “is part of the facts.”

It’s not “part of the facts.” You said so yourself. That you would write something that you yourself have previously admitted to be untrue would boggle my mind, except I’ve been exchanging posts with you.

I wondered when I wrote “talked” about the federal investigator, you’d pretend that it mattered that I wrote “talked” instead of “e-mailed.” I was right. So here it is again: Jim Tressel never had any communication of any sort with anyone investigating Rife. His communication was with Cicero. Cicero did not ask him to keep their correspondence confidential. Jim Tressel did not keep the correspondence confidential. He didn’t tell the people he was contractually obligated to tell, and he lied about it to the people he was ethically obligated to inform.

In short, Jim Tressel lied to OSU and the NCAA, resulting in ineligible players participating in all OSU games in 2010. If you think that’s either non-factual, or an exaggeration, you’re nuts.

Two questions: Have you read OSU’s response to the NCAA yet? What do you think of their characterization of Tressel?

I repeat: if OSU behaves toward the NCAA panel the way that you have behaved in this thread, they’re fucked. After the panel stops laughing, they’ll hammer them so hard it will make people’s head spin in Eugene OR. Fortunately for OSU, you’ll be nowhere near Indianapolis in August.

by patrickdolan on Jul 9, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please enter 4 tokens and try again.
I don’t know if you noticed this, but in #1 above you seem to be asserting that "Tressel kept quiet because he was asked to by a federal investigator," "is part of the facts."

This is false. I assert the lawyer privy to inside information of an ongoing federal investigation requested confidentiality, which some fans take into account when they balance their opinion of the Vest.

…so which part of the dead horse are you going to beat?

The objective fact confidentiality was requested…

…, or the subjective decision by some fans take it into account when balancing their opinion where you wish they wouldn’t.

…or re-iterate the correction already credited that it was a defense attorney and not a federal investigator?

you’d pretend that it mattered that I wrote "talked" instead of "e-mailed."

No pretending – the difference was noted when you originally commented.

Cicero did not ask him to keep their correspondence confidential.

This is a contradiction by yourself In the previous comment you complain the comment was taken word for word, here you complain it isn’t taken word for word, asserting “What I tell you is confidential” is not a request for confidentiality, changing the stance based on on which better supports your assertion.

Jim Tressel did not keep the correspondence confidential. He didn’t tell the people he was contractually obligated to tell, and he lied about it to the people he was ethically obligated to inform.

So? The response to to a request for confidentiality with one group at one time does not mean the same response will be given to all people all of the time – nothing shocking and new here.

Your belief that it played no part in the Vests decision process is as unsupported as some fans belief it did – no matter how many volumes you write, it cannot be moved to fact unless you claim to know the Vest’s thoughts at the time.

Both views are subjective beliefs influenced by a pre-existing bias. They are also irrelevant to the NCAA investigation, and irrelevant in the context I originally noted them.

Please enter 4 tokens and try again.

In short, Jim Tressel lied to OSU and the NCAA, resulting in ineligible players participating in all OSU games in 2010. If you think that’s either non-factual, or an exaggeration, you’re nuts.

Please enter 4 tokens and try again – I never claimed this was not factual.

As worded above it is clearly not an exaggeration.

If you have to change the OP viewpoint for your comments to be relevant, your comments aren’t relevant.

by ProveIt on Jul 9, 2011 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Quickie correction
Jim Tressel lied to OSU and the NCAA, resulting in ineligible players participating in all OSU games in 2010

There were no ineligible players in the bowl game.

…but I believe here you are making an oversight and not an exaggeration.

Quickie addition

Have you read OSU’s response to the NCAA yet? What do you think of their characterization of Tressel?

I glanced over the majority of it including the most significant parts (I didn’t bother to read word for word sections such as Tressel’s coaching career, etc.).

I believe the portions I read to be accurate, and I trust the program was honest and forthcoming.

Why the question? Hoping to move onto another machine since the one you are playing has eaten all of your tokens?

I repeat: if OSU behaves toward the NCAA panel the way that you have behaved in this thread, they’re fucked.

So? You feel you are deserving of the same respect as the NCAA? Good luck with that one.

How about this – if the board handled themselves in the same manner as yourself, the NCAA wouldn’t have any members.

Please enter 4 tokens and try again.

by ProveIt on Jul 10, 2011 6:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Blasphemy!
Notice you’ll read nothing in there about cars, Pryor (or anyone else) getting money for signing autographs, lack of institutional control, failure to monitor, the murdering of innocent babies and impaling them on spikes, starting a world war, nothing.

I will continue to believe the OSU caused World War II and no one can convince me otherwise!

"I thank God I was warring on the gridirons of the Midwest and not on the battlefields of Europe." -- Nile Kinnick
~~ Never gets old.

by HawksNation on Jul 6, 2011 2:29 PM CDT reply actions  

counterpoint

great pro con article. i reside firmly on counterpoints side. not one of the allegations beyond tatgate and jim tressel knowing about it have been remotely established! comparing usc to osu is absurd.let the haters be angry when the buckeyes are not further punished.

by planck10 on Jul 6, 2011 4:28 PM CDT reply actions  

It was a witch hunt...

There has been little to no substantiation on most of the post-tat gate allegations. At this point I would be surprised if there was.

Only the Talbott issue has any air of suspicion to my eyes. Ohio State has severed ties to him, he was involved with several players… the golf course business seemed credible, and Terrell Prior left for a reason. There is enough smoke there to imply a fire, but with TP’s departure and the NCAA’s lack of subpoena power, proving anything will be quite difficult.

Tressel was sacrificed to attempt to salvage institutional control. We’ll find out in August if it was enough.

The sideline is always greener at MSU.

by Green 96 on Jul 6, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Obviously I can't spell

Terrelle Pryor.

The sideline is always greener at MSU.

by Green 96 on Jul 6, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

The NCAA hasn’t even asked to speak to Talbott. People forget that the ncaa was here before any of the tabloids. Yahoo didn’t break a story. OSU informed the ncaa in Jan, the tabloids didn’t report until March.

by biggy84 on Jul 6, 2011 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stop being objective Green!!!

Don’t you know that the tattoos were laced with some kind of super-duper performance enhancing drugs? And that Terrelle Pryor used to eat children to keep his protein levels high? And that OSU hatred is supposed to cloud all rational judgment?!

by TheHumbleBuckeye on Jul 7, 2011 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

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