The Big Ten Expanding to 16 Teams: It's Time to Work Your B1G Quads
by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 11:30 AM CDT
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PrintYes, this is an article about B1G expansion. However, let me be clear about what this article is not. This is not an article that 1) presumes to know how the B1G will act. I have no inside knowledge (and will not act as if I do); 2) spends a lot of time worrying about who would be added; and 3) cares whether 12 teams or 16 teams is better. You can find enough on those topics elsewhere. This article is about logistics - namely, how can we best make a 16 team league work. If the B1G did it right, it could be a huge and fascinating evolution in college football. The key, is in the organization.
I. Step One - Add four teams.
Here are the current rules of realignment. They're pretty simple.
- No one leaves the B1G, Pac-##, or SEC. You don't give away your golden ticket.
- Everyone (not named Notre Dame or Texas) wants to be in the B1G, Pac-##, or SEC.
- The ACC is best positioned to be the fourth conference of importance, but still sits behind the other three until it improves its media deals.
- We have now reached the point that everyone (not named Texas) would leave the Big East or Big-12 for a viable opportunity to be in the B1G, Pac-xx, or SEC. In addition, Texas may have just reached this point this weekend.
Now, when I started this idea last week, I envisioned the B1G poaching Missouri and Kansas from the Big 12 and Virginia and Maryland from the ACC. This broadened the media footprint in both directions, and made DC a B1G City. However, now that the ACC has strengthened itself as a survivor (and not just a league to be picked over and then partnered with the remnants of the Big east), I'll go in a different direction.
The new B1G members are Missouri, Kansas, Notre Dame and Connecticut. Why Notre Dame now? Because the school is told that we're moving to four 16 team conferences, with a four team playoff at the end that is only for the champions of the four leagues. If the Irish want to remain in major college football, they have to join. UConn gives a Northeastern presence, a proximity to NYC, and add a strong history in basketball (and being in a BCS bowl in 2010 doesn't hurt either). Missouri and Kansas add two strong athletic departments, two large-ish media markets, and enough recent success in football to justify the move.
Again, I don't want to dwell on the "who" too much. Instead, let's talk about the how.
2. Step Two - Sort Into Quads.
Here's the problem with two 8 team divisions. You essentially dissolve into two eight team conferences. By having seven opponents that remain on your schedule every year, it makes it almost impossible to have any meaningful interaction with the other half of the league. But, if you're in a four team division, or quad, you only take up three games for division opponents. The rest of the games can be rotated. That keeps more connections among conference mates. That's a good thing.
Now, I'm going to label these quads geographically. Knowing the B1G minds in Chicago, they'll probably call them Legends, Leaders, Heroes, and Hopes. Regardless, you'll get the idea.
B1G West: Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Nebraska
B1G North: Connecticut, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin
B1G East: Indiana, Notre Dame, Penn State, Purdue
B1G South: Illinois, Missouri, Northwestern, Ohio State
If you're looking at competitive balance, these are historically pretty good. Swapping Wisconsin and Missouri might make it better, but I'm willing to let the balance be off just that little bit for the simplicity. Let's not get too hung up on it.
III. Step Three - Schedule the First Eight Games.
Yes, we're still using a nine game conference schedule. For right now, though, let's focus on the first eight games. Each year, each team will play 1) its 3 Quad opponents, 2) 4 teams from one other quad, and 3) 1 permanent rival. For this article, I've assigned the following as permanent rivals (OSU-Mich; Ill-Pur; Kan-Mizz; Neb-PSU; MSU-ND; MN-WI; IA-NW; Conn-Ind). They're no worse than the permanent rivals that the Big Ten assigned last summer.
So, let's look at Ohio State. In year 1, the B1G South will play the B1G East. Ohio State's schedule would then be Illinois, @Missouri, Northwestern, @Indiana, Notre Dame, @ Penn State, Purdue, and @Michigan. In year 2, the quad rivals and Michigan will stay on the schedule while the B1G West rotates in place of the B1G East. Year 2 for OSU has @Illinois, Missouri, @Northwestern, Iowa, @Kansas, Nebraska, @Minnesota, Michigan. In year three, the B1G North slides in.
They'll still meet every year.
Ahhhh...but then wouldn't there be two Ohio State-Michigan games? No. When a permanent rival game appears due to quad rotation, the league swaps opponents. In year three, Ohio State-Michigan and Nebraska-Penn State both would be played during the quad rotation. Instead, Ohio State plays Penn State and Michigan plays Nebraska as the rival game. So, OSU's schedule in year three would be Illinois, @Missouri, Northwestern, @Connecticut, Michigan State, @Michigan, Wisconsin, @Penn State.
IV. Step Four - Schedule the Ninth Game
Here's the beauty of this system. This ninth game isn't just another conference game. It's a semi-final. Each year, the quads will know if they are hosting or traveling for Thanksgiving weekend. However, they will not know the opponent. For example, in Year 1, The B1G East will travel to the B1G West, and the B1G North will travel to the B1G South. The quad matchups will rotate each year (Year 2: West at North; South at East).
By having entire quads travel or host, each team will know how many home and road games it will have each season, even if it doesn't know its final opponent. In Year 1, the B1G West and South will have five home games (i.e. that's the year to play a road non-con game). In Year 2, those two quads will have 4 home games (i.e. play all three non-con games at home).
As for the actual opponent, each team will face the school in the same place in the standings at that point. So on Thanksgiving weekend, you might see this:
7-1 Penn State @ 6-2 Iowa
7-1 Wisconsin @ 7-1 Ohio State
5-3 Notre Dame @ 5-3 Nebraska
5-3 Michigan @ 4-4 Missouri
4-4 Purdue @ 3-5 Minnesota
4-4 Michigan State @ 3-5 Illinois
1-7 Indiana @ 1-7 Kansas
0-8 UConn @ 2-6 Northwestern
Now for the bottom six of those games, it's just the last game of the regular season. But for the quad champions, it's a B1G Semi-Final, with the winners moving on to Indianapolis to play in the B1G Title Game in the first week of December. Do you think ABC or FOX would pay B1G money for a Thanksgiving Saturday doubleheader of the two semi-finals? Think it'll draw ratings? It'd be huge.
And best of all, because it's being done within the confines of the conference schedule, and without adding to the 12 game NCAA schedule, it's completely within the existing rules.
V. Step Five
Make it happen. Like I said, we can argue as to who the right four teams are. Just know that if the league expands, there is a way to do it that completely changes the landscape of college football.
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please no
I keep hoping we’re above the fray and simply stand pat. I want no part of ND, either.
A futile crusade to prevent mass ignorance
HammerAndRails, SBNation's Boilermaker Blog
by BoilerTMill on Sep 19, 2011 11:35 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I want no part of ND, either.
You gotta get over your irrational feelings on ND to B1G. I hate them too as a rival of Purdue, but you can’t dispute the value they would add to the conference. They are a quality academic institution, would add a ton of eyeballs (hint: revenue) to the BTN due to their national following, and have a tradition rich football program. All of these things would raise the national profile of the Big Ten conference and increase revenue for the BTN.
Ever Grateful. Ever True.
by PurdueMatt on Sep 19, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, but I don't see it that way
They would be the fifth best team at best of they joined for football, and they would hardly be a team they expect to be by dominating year in and year out. We can do just fine in terms of adding fanbases and seeking new markets, as they wouldn’t add that much. They’ll never join anyway because they value autonomy too much, hopefully to the point they further slide into irrelevancy.
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by BoilerTMill on Sep 19, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Perfect - 5th best sure beats them being top of the heap
As long as folks keep tuning them in (they will)
Your perception of how good they are as a football team doesn't matter
We all know their on-field results haven’t matched their opinion of themselves for awhile now, but that doesn’t stop people from tuning into NBC on Saturdays, and that is what truly matters. Your perception of them didn’t prevent their game against Michigan from receiving amazing ratings and receiving the attention it did. Its all about increased revenue from additional eyeballs to the BTN. Their academic reputation and long standing rivalries with existing members is gravy as well.
Ever Grateful. Ever True.
Exactly
I mean, everybody hates ND. Join the club. Everybody also hates UM and Ohio State, and really they’re no different from ND in terms of big (and fairly arrogant) fanbases and lots of money.
There would be absolutely no disadvantage to having Notre Dame in the B1G.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
FIVE!
Oh, sorry, I read “results haven’t matched opinion of themselves” and thought you were talking about Nebraska.
My mistake.
by Albino Tornado on Sep 19, 2011 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I think this will help you Travis....
Ranking all FBS programs by TV market…..
Ever Grateful. Ever True.
From the article.....
The Big Ten can afford to be picky. Ohio State, Michigan and Penn State are the three most popular college football teams in the country, according to our study. Seven Big Ten teams, including new addition Nebraska, rank in the top 20 nationally. And all but one Big Ten school is in the top 50, the lone exception being Northwestern, which has the Chicago market and strong academics going for it.
The only plausible additions that would allow the Big Ten to improve upon its average of about 1.5 million fans per team are Notre Dame (2.3 million fans) and Texas (also 2.3 million). But good luck adding those schools.
Missouri, with 1.1 million fans — about as many as Nebraska — wouldn’t be far from the league average. Kansas (0.8 million) would be more of a stretch from a football standpoint but could bring in substantial college basketball revenues.
There’s also long been talk of the Big Ten expanding into the Notheast. But Rutgers (0.9 million fans) and Connecticut (0.6 million) are only middling targets on their own merits because of the relatively low enthusiasm for college football in the region (the same would have gone for Syracuse or Pittsburgh, which just decided to join the A.C.C.).
Then again, we estimate that there are about 0.6 fans of the current Big Ten schools in the New York City market alone, so a lot of people might tune in hoping to see one of these schools lose.
One outside-the-box target: Virginia Tech. In addition to its natural (and quite avid) fan base in western Virginia, it also has some reach into Washington, D.C. and other relatively populous markets — enough for it to rank 13th in the country with 1.3 million fans.
Ever Grateful. Ever True.
Still don't care.
I want them to continue withering on the vine because of their arrogance.
A futile crusade to prevent mass ignorance
HammerAndRails, SBNation's Boilermaker Blog
by BoilerTMill on Sep 19, 2011 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
You should care
If you care about raising the national profile of the conference and bringing in more revenue.
Ever Grateful. Ever True.
This is the single dumbest and most asinine article I have ever seen on this site.
You will be awarded no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I agree with T-Mill
I’m hoping against hope we let some other conference try it first, but this plan is infinitely better than two eight team divisions.
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I would like to stay at 12,
but this is a damn good plan. My question is, would Kansas be able to separate from little brother, aka K-State?
At this point
It’s not a question of one or two. It’s a question of one or zero. If KU wants in the party. they’ve got to ditch the kid brother. Otherwise, the B1G goes elsewhere. K-State and Iowa State are the worst positioned schools in all of this.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
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by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, they really are
Neither school really brings anything to the table.
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Adding Kansas is essentially adding Indiana West.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
No
It’s like adding Illinois West.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
With a fanbase that cares tremendously less about football.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I've been to two KU football games in the past two years.
It’s like being in a blue Ryan Field.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
When good
both teams draw. When bad, both stadiums get empty.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been in both stadiums when the team has been shitty.
KU empty is a whole nother ball game.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
But, if Mizzou is invited
KU-MIzzou is a great rivalry, and they’d fit culturally.
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They aren't splitting from K-State.
It’s just not happening.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Says who?
All the talk out of Kansas is that they’d cut and run if the Big Ten came calling.
They know full well they could be thrown out of the BCS as an AQ school, they’re not about to die for KSU.
by metatron5369 on Sep 20, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed, to a point.
Kansas will split from K-State for the B1G….but that will only come to pass in the event that it’s “Kansas to the B1G or else join a seriously inferior conference just to stick with K-State” as the options.
I admire Kansas-KState sticking together, and there certainly will be political pressure to keep that up…..but it will wilt entirely if the Big 12 dissolves losing some combination of Mizzou/Oklahoma/Texas/Texas A&M/OkState, and Kansas is faced with the chance to get to the B1G by itself.
(That being said, if Mizzou DOES go to the SEC — which to me seems stupid for them to do at this point without at least waiting a bit longer to see if expansionpalooza turns around and makes them attractive to the B1G — Kansas and K-State could be attractive B1G members together or separately in some combo with ND/Rutgers/UConn)
/Please note, I’m happy with 12 teams for the B1G, with maybe the Domers being the only great fit option out there for expansion, which would then require adding 1 more team (and 3 more in addition to ND if we are forced by the market to go to 16 teams)
They dont have a choice
Its not that Kansas is protecting little brother, it that the Kansas’ Mom (goverment) is not going to let Kansas go off to play and not take little brother.
Think “a Christmas tale”; Kansas is Ralphie and Kstate is that fat little kid who eats his potatos like a little piggy!
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
Though they are a much better fit than UConn.
And I know we aren’t supposed to get caught up on the who in the article, but UConn? Really?
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I think
that the B1G is watching very carefully at the play that the ACC is making for NYC.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
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by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd honestly rather add West Virginia
Even despite the fact that I’m sure it has substantially “worse” academics.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
I don't know how the academics would fit
but as long as we’re raiding the Big East why not offer to rescue TCU? They have to be panicking now that their future as an AQ is in jeopardy. Grabs some of the Dallas/Fort Worth market which could help everyone’s recruiting and wouldn’t be a huge reach if Mizzou and Kansas join. They’re not really relevant in basketball, but Nebraska isn’t either so there’s precedent for that, too.
Wisconsin does not approve of this
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No more conference expansion talk!
It’s seriously getting tiresome and depressing.
I am not a Leader, and I am not a Legend.
by Aaron Go Bragh on Sep 19, 2011 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 6 recs
C'mon
We’re not Baghdad Bob here. The B1G can have what they want and we mine as well prepare for when we expand.
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by Graham Filler on Sep 19, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
This is happening, it really is. I know the rhetoric of 16 teams not working and superconferences being a lost cause (I get it, the MWC tried and failed), but if the SEC and PACXX go to 16, the B1G is going to be pushed to expand or get left behind. The new era of whatever this division of teams is going to be (Let’s just call it the money division) will more or less require 16 to be competitive. With the ACC staking claim to being a part of this party, the B1G will have to act or be forced to react. We don’t want to be the guys who react.
Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.
by KennardHusker on Sep 19, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
It would not suprise me to see
a 14 team ACC, a 16 team PAC, a 14 team SEC and a 12 team B1G. Conferences don’t have to expand just for expansion sake.
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by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 19, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Everything I've read to date has said that 14 teams doesn't make sense.
Apparently it’s a logistical nightmare when compared to 12 or 16. The pod model is junk in a 14-team conference, I’m not sure a 7-team division model works very well, either.
by The Mexican't on Sep 19, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Awww isn't that cute
The guy whose team has been in the league for like a week already wants more of his buddies to join him.
I am not a Leader, and I am not a Legend.
by Aaron Go Bragh on Sep 19, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I bet it's sooner rather than later
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It's relevant now
The ACC threw its marker down in taking Syracuse and Pitt. If they add UConn and Rutgers, they’ll have changed completely from being a southeasern league to being the league of the Eastern Seaboard (half of the league will be Virginia and north). That’s important, because it “landlocks” the B1G to the East. Plucking teams from the Big East is easy. Taking from the ACC may be possible, but it won’t be as simple.
That limits B1G’s options for expansion. While many here might be happy with 12, Big Jim knows that if you want to grow your pie, you need to grow your product.
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by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
And all roads lead to South Bend
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There is an odd tension in the B1G-Notre Dame situation.
We all know Notre Dame is the big prize for the B1G (and ACC, so far as that goes).
Notre Dame is going to hold on to its independent status as long as possible. I am one of those who believe ND will only join a football conference when sixteen-team leagues make it impossible for ND to continue playing partial B1G and partial Big East schedule.
And that is the tension.
The B1G will not go to sixteen teams (fourteen without the Irish is quite possible, if not likely) unless one of them is Notre Dame, but so long as ND can play three or four B1G teams each season, they have no reason to join the B1G, or anyone else.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
But we're talking expansion for the sake of talking about expansion
We’re saying: well everyone is doing it so we better hurry up and get in on this. Lots of those schools bring something to the table but are they really Big Ten quality? OMG THEY’RE GOOD AT BASKETBALL WE BETTER ADD THEM is not how Big Jim thinks.
But he doesn't put his head in the sand
and try to keep up with the Jones’ after the fact. The Jones’ keep up with Delany.
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by Ted Glover on Sep 19, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Delany got out-maneuvered this past weekend.
Delany deservedly got a lot of credit last year for bringing Nebraska in to the fold, but given his past statements about moving the B1G footprint east the ACC got the best of Delany this time. Syracuse, one of Delany’s targets, is gone. (I don’t believe Pitt had much more to offer the B1G than does Iowa State.)
UConn is definitely talking to the ACC, as is Rutgers; RU is also now talking to the B1G, and I bet those conversations are frantic on Delany’s end. If the B1G doesn’t get Rutgers, there goes the plan to invade the East Coast.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Neither Pitt Nor Syracuse
is a real loss. There are a dozen other equivalent mid-level schools Delaney can poach if B1G feels the need.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
How many viable targets for the B1G are in the Northeast Metroplex?
Adding schools with the potential to add TV viewers in New York and New Jersey is very different from adding Kansas or even Missouri.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
NYC doesn't give a damn about college sports.
and there is no reason to believe that Rutgers, Syracuse or whoever changing conferences is going to change that.
IF Rutgers every fulfills it’s potential, and there is no reason to believe that it will, then it would be a viable candidate. But other than one magic football season, what have they ever done?
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
I agree with this.
There is no NYC market for college football. The people there that are interested in college sports are the alumni that move there, not the locals.
Could this change? Sure, but there has to be a winning team that New Yorkers can get behind. There currently isn’t.
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by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 19, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not Rutgers/Syracuse/UConn that brings NYC
It’s Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan and Notre Dame. You start scheduling those opponents at, say, the New Meadowlands and on the BTN, alumni or Catholics, whichever is applicable, will start taking notice and want those games, which means they want the BTN.
This is how you get the BTN on in NYC, not by showing Rutgers vs. Minnesota.
I think this is right...
When I was young (40 years ago) the Penn State and Notre Dame games were the lead stories on the Sunday New York Times sports page during the fall.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
I agree, but I am not Jim Delany
I am very skeptical of how much the B1G would gain from adding Rutgers, or less likely, UConn (see my posts in yesterday’s OTE Bowl Projections thread), but Delany has made his preference for eastward expansion clear.
If Delany wants to expand eastward and at least try to tap NYC, losing Syracuse is a setback for him. Ditto losing UConn and Rutgers.
More generally, there seems to be a bit of homerism at play here, in that some of us assume the B1G can just ask Texas, Oklahoma, North Carolina, or whoever to join, and they will happily join on whatever terms Delany dictates. The reality is, as the ACC move shows, that the B1G is not the only player with any clout, and the B1G’s influence is not unlimited.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Delaney also held court
and talked about how population shift in the US practically dictated adding a sun belt team. Then he went and added Nebraska.
I know the B1G can’t get just anybody, but I can guarantee there are a whole bunch of AD’s just wishing we would call.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
I've got nothing football related to say about the population shift
Except potable water is a valuable and increasingly scarce commodity, and it’s best to live closer to the source.
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
This is actually very important.
The population shift to the southwest will only go as far as the available water will take them.
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by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 20, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Very few 'Cuses and Pitts left
If you consider the ACC pretty safe now, there really aren’t that many mid level programs left. That’s the “worry” if you are pro-expansion B1G.
by InflectionPoint on Sep 19, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
With the money the B1G brings to the table
the ACC isn’t all that safe. I don’t know why Pitt & Syracuse jumped, but it wasn’t because they were worried that Jim Delaney was going to call.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Rumors still abound in the ACC.
Florida St. may jump to the SEC. Ga. Tech may be an SEC target too. Both fit and have natural rivalries in the SEC.
Your fantasy football expert since Jerry Rice's rookie year.
I'm not convinced they're gone yet.
Pitt and Syracuse both could still change their minds and jump to the B1G if Delaney came calling. Especially since they’re not actually members of the ACC yet and probably won’t be for a couple years. Even after that, it’s still not outside the realm of possibility that they could migrate to the Big Ten. I think that’s one of the reasons Delaney has the luxury of sitting back and watching what unfolds, without worrying too much about being out-maneuvered.
by Dan TrueBlue on Sep 20, 2011 6:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought the evolution of the super-conferences would be a slow, gradual process, too.
And who knows—maybe Texas and Oklahoma will decide to work it out for the sake of the kids, and we’ll be spared utter chaos for another few years.
But things seem to be un-folding at an ever-accelarating rate. If the regents at UT and OU do what everyone thinks they will do later today, events will unfold even more quickly, and more dramatically.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Question
Where is everyone getting this idea that the BCS will be somehow changed because of conference realignment? Seriously, is there a quote from Delaney or something?
Here’s why I ask, remember when Utah went to the Fiesta Bowl and beat Pittsburgh, and the non-AQs used that to leverage the BCS into adding a fifth game and new selection rules which opened up access for them? How do you think they will react if Jim Delaney and Mike Slive come out with a plus one for only these 16 team super-conferences? It’s a legal and logistical nightmare and I can guarantee you there will be much gnashing of teeth from the Boise State’s of the world if it does happen.
I’m not saying it won’t I am just curious why everyone would expect Jim Delaney, who (whether you like it or not) has walked a tight rope over and over again for the BCS, to come out with an idea which is more than likely going to end up with a lawsuit against his and the other four super-conferences. In other words, I will believe it when I see it.
http://victorypolka.blogspot.com/
If the 16 team superconference thing happens
I can easily see a scenario where those 4 16 team conferences (B1G, Pac-16, SEC, and ACC) form their own version of the NCAA, set up their own championship with the BCS, and give non-AQ schools no legal leg to stand on.
At least, I don’t think they’d have a legal leg to stand on.
OTE legal department, amiright?
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The lawsuits will fly
But I suspect that the Big Four will win or settle with reasonable dollar amounts and promises to schedule some games against the leftouts.
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by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
But they could still do it, relatively unscathed, correct?
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That would be my guess.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I really doubt the new NCAA theories
As much as people like to complain about the NCAA, nobody else wants to invest the time, money, and most of all the responsibility of setting up whole new rules, policies, tournament structures, officiating crews, investigative crews, etc, etc. It’s much easier to change the NCAA we have than to build a whole new one.
by Dan TrueBlue on Sep 20, 2011 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Just you wait and see..
when a 16-team conferences mean that instead of 2 really bad teams each year, there will be four or five really bad teams. Make room for the Ro-Tel Bowl boys. Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Kansas, NU and UCONN will never get to taste the BIG championship. Additionally, I would rather have Texas versus ND any day of the week. At least Texas forces the BIG to get better in football, ND only adds a hockey team. Finally, at some point all the reallignment will lead to consolidation when the likes of Duke, Wake, Vandy, Kentucky, BC, NU, Stanford, Wash St, Cal, Oregon St, Minnesota, Indiana, Purdue, UVa, UNC will be asked to increase stadium size and generate more TV eryeballs for football dollars. We are about 5 years from a 30-team super conference that is more NFL than college ball.
Dikaia Upotheke - Justice Our Foundation
You act as though the academic side of things...
…is willing to cut loose quality academic schools from their midst. B1G, ACC, or PAC presidents might close their eyes and take slightly lower ranked academic schools in the name of better TV contracts. But I find it unlikely that they would willingly cut loose quality academic institutions (seriously, look at your list) strictly because of academic considerations. Sports conferences (especially in the case of the B1G) are also academic groupings.
by GoAUpher on Sep 19, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
UVA, UMD, UNC & Duke.
It’s all I want. And, yes, I know it brings you nothing in football.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
I would absolutely get behind this
While I know football drives this cart right now, how amazing would that conference be across the sports landscape? We’d have football powers, basketball powers, volleyball powers, track and field powers, LAX powers, and hockey powers. I’m sure that these eastern schools are good at soccer as well. I know NC is, at least. Oh, and baseball! We’d have a real baseball league. That and academically, that is a hell of a lot of research money right there.
Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.
by KennardHusker on Sep 19, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Maryland is #1 in men's soccer, and #11 in women's
Great lax (men and womens), fantastic field hockey (B1G would have winners of last 6 national championships with UMD and UNC), but more importantly great basketball, and believe it or not, Maryland football might actually be on the rise. Maryland would be B1G bottom feeder for a little bit, but with B1G conference claim and Under Armour money, we’d get a lot better, and hopefully turn from a basketball school into a football school.
With the ACC expanding and adding a $20 million exit fee to schools that are
thinking of leaving, this ain’t happening. I’d consider the ACC a power conference now.
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I think if there are schools that could afford that fee
3 of them are obviously in that group. And I’m still not sold on the ACC as being “safe”. The Big East was feeling pretty good about adding TCU and see how long that lasted? Granted, theirs was a more tenuous grip on safety.
Still, let’s not pretend like the ACC just solidified their football presence; they’ve added two schools that haven’t won an outright championship in the Big East for quite a while. Added to this is the reality of the SEC’s-still-undecided 14th (or 15th & 16th) member. If it’s Missouri or WVA, it doesn’t matter. If it’s a Florida State or Virginia Tech, though…
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
the ACC realizes that it will never be football kings
However, they are building a nationally recognized basketball brand, and if people want to see quality basketball nightly, then they will want to buy into the soon to be formed ACC Network. Just like people paying to watch B1G football, people will pay to watch ACC basketball. People in the northeast (i.e. NYC) love their basketball, and if their previous favorite conference (Big East) is not going to be around to offer great basketball nightly (UCONN can’t play every night), then they will go to watch the ACC on the ACC Network.
You’re right that the ACC didn’t solidify their football standing, and that football schools like FSU and VT might just leave for better football, but I think that the money that an ACC Network would be enough to keep schools from going away.
$20 million isn't that much
in the grand scheme of things. Yes, it would take several years to recoup, but if the B1G schools really wanted them, they could find a way to make sure that was paid.
"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass
by chitownhawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions
No chance
UVA, UNC, or Duke leave the ACC. Why leave a conference you run and become little brother? Maryland on the other hand might still be an option.
by Jonathan Loesche on Sep 19, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
They would remain pretty much at the same level they currently are
and join a league whose institutional ideals are more uniform with their own. The ACC is up there with the Pac-? in terms of being a mish-mash of incredibly elite schools and not-so-elite schools. I’ve always felt those schools’ (well, UVA, UNC & Duke) driving outlook on conference affiliation is that, no matter what league they’re in, they’re together.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
"[UVA. UMD, UNC & Duke] bring you nothing in football"
This is one reason none of these schools are joining the B1G.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
And I didn't say they were.
It’s simply my wish, based on crazy stuff like adherence to conference ideals and forward-looking concepts like population shifts and expanding media markets. But, hey, Kansas…awesome.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Four-team pods are the way to go--no eight-team divisions.
I’m not going to comment on the alignments given here, since I don’t think we’re going to see all four of these teams, should the B1G go to sixteen.
(Especially not UConn.)
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 12:34 PM CDT reply actions
Wouldn't rule out Notre Dame to the ACC
Supposedly the Irish want to move to the ACC in everything but football, but the conference won’t allow it. If the ACC is serious about expansion, they’ll make the move work.
Either way, the only two teams that I think would still jump from the ACC right now are Florida State and Clemson. FSU does have the world’s best magnetics research lab ;).
by Jonathan Loesche on Sep 19, 2011 12:42 PM CDT reply actions
B1G won't expand for expansion sake
You will not see them pick up scraps from a left-over Big XII or Big East. The B1G will not expand at this point unless Notre Dame and/or Texas is available.
At this point, I think Jim Delaney needs to invite the Irish in for all of their non-football sports. Having the Irish Olympic sports on the B1G network would still be a boon for the conference and it wouldn’t upset the balance of the football schedule. Also, it creates a relationship between Notre Dame and the B1G whereas they could someday make the transition very easily if they needed their football team to join a conference.
In the deed, the glory.
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I would have no problem with snatching up Mizzou when the Big 12 finally hits the canvas.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
You're thinking like an Illini fan, there.
The standard for B1G expansion is Penn State and Nebraska. Missouri does not fit that profile.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
and if the B1G wanted Missouri
they would have Missouri by now.
In the deed, the glory.
Corn Nation!
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by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 19, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, this.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
And have 13 teams?
Jim needed/wanted one team, got to 12, got the divisions and championship game. If you have both Nebraska and Missouri on the board, which do you take (I know which one I’d pick, but I’m a biased Nebraska guy too)? :-)
Just because Missouri didn’t make the one-team cut last year, doesn’t necessarily mean that Jim D. has no interest in them.
The funny thing is
Aside from football, Mizzou brings so much more to the table than Nebraska: Not one, but TWO big-city media markets (STL and KC). Nebraska brings in… Omaha. Which is nice, underrated city, but that’s it. It’s not like Jim Delaney was clamoring for more TV viewers in Kearney.
Anyway, Mizzou also brings in better academics, a more well-rounded athletics department (basketball and baseball especially) and I would guess more rich donors.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Adds another vet school to the conference, giving the Big Ten 7 of the 28. That's a neat little perk.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
So the Nebraska cheerleaders
can get medical care in 25% of the conference without going off-campus.
That is a neat perk.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
by Flakbait on Sep 19, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
touche
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The quintessential Big Ten smoking room.
by Graham Filler on Sep 20, 2011 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Big Ten already has St. Louis (thanks, Illini!)
KC isn’t worth the marginal addition without the national TV contract bargaining chip.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Not really
If you took a poll in the STL area, it’d likely be 8 Mizzou fans for every 2 Illini fans. And most of those Illini fans would be on their own side of the river. And that Illinois side of the STL Metro Area is… well, just take a drive through East St. Louis and Granite City (and then maybe to Breese and Dupo) and you’ll get what I mean: It’s either really urban and run down or weirdly rural (like, in Fairview Heights, this big mall is across the street from a cornfield).
Adding Mizzou would give the B1G the part of St. Louis that actually has people in it.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Wait, what?
Isn’t the BTN is already on in St. Louis? That means that everyone subscribing to cable pays for the BTN wether they watch it or not. Or are you just saying from a national, network ratings-driven standpoint for the ABC contract? If so, pardon me if I’d hope the conference sets their sights a little higher than St. Louis.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 21, 2011 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure how widley available it is, is my point
If Mizzou were in the B1G, the BTN would undoubtedly be on in every household that has cable. But as of now, I don’t know if it is because if you have Fox Sports Midwest, you get everything you need: Mizzou, Cardinals and Blues. And correct me if I’m wrong, but most of the time the FSN channels outside of B1G states are usually on the basic tier and BTN is on another tier (as far as payment goes).
But if Mizzou did get in, it would probabaly actually put the entire state of Missouri on the BTN because more companies would carry it on their basic tier. (I know I didn’t get it when I lived there before I moved to Illinois.)
Anyhow, obviously it would behoove the B1G to set its sights higher than STL if it wants higher network ratings on ABC. I’m just arguing that the B1G does not currently HAVE St. Louis locked up like you imply. It’s decidedly Mizzou country in terms of number of followers and coverage.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
HEY!!!
The Metro East is….
/looks out living room window at cornfield 1/2 mile from Interstate
/locks car while driving through East St Louis going downtown
/is seriously considering moving to Breese to get away from urban blight
//sobs, tears ACL
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I'm not down on the Metro East
I actually quite enjoy it. I mean, live in Effingham now so going to Collinsville for work is like a trip to the big city.
Anyhow, the Metro East is just a somewhat odd urban area, in terms of the blight and cornfields co-existing so close to the center of a major city.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
The ONLY way Mizzou gets in
is if B1G has 13 or 15 teams and wants an even number and decides to settle on a solid double (instead of a home run) from a guy who has an outside shot at stealing third…. someday.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
It's not just about actual results on the football field; it is about TV sets and recruiting, too.
There are too many viewers and recruits in the St. Louis and Kansas City areas for Mizzou not to get a serious look from the SEC and B1G.
If I could verify it, I would bet good money Delany is burning up the phoneline to Rutgers right now, and that is not because of Rutgers’ on-field performane. It is about Rutgers’ proximity to the NYC/North Jersey Nielsen Ratings goldmine.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
And Geographical Defense
Mizzu may not be a world beater by itself, but the minute they land in the SEC we aren’t getting them.
Do we need to play offense as a best form of defense regarding Mizzu?
…look what the ACC just did.
by InflectionPoint on Sep 19, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure I agree with this.
Say that Missouri joins the SEC. In a few years, ND decides to join the B1G and then Jim Delaney picks up the phone to Missouri. Would they say “we are happy in the SEC?” I’m guessing they would still consider the B1G at that point. Academic prestige.
In the deed, the glory.
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by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 19, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Missouri would never leave the SEC for the B1G based on academics.
Something something reign in Hell something something serve in Heaven.
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Boomer Sooner, Boomer Sooner, Boomer Sooner, OK U!
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Oklahoma, Oklahoma, Oklahoma, OK U!
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Rah Oklahoma, Rah Oklahoma Rah Oklahoma, OK U!
by Bob Genghiskhan on Sep 19, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure, consider.
I agree, they definitely may. But if they were to land in the SEC the money and I’ll call it institutional stability, may trump our overtures.
Agree the academic aspect is a long term tricky spot for Mizzu to SEC.
by InflectionPoint on Sep 19, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
OK, sorry, but this is bugging me...
It’s Miz-zOu.
Carry on.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Congratulations. Now the Iowa fans will do it explicitly to piss you off.
by Albino Tornado on Sep 19, 2011 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Iowa has made it easy
Just ask how many trophies they’re holding onto these days. That’ll shut them up
Hint: It’s less than Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa State have
.
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
by Marshmoose on Sep 20, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
The same number
if counting bowl trophies.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I'm obviously not from Mizzou
It just looks really stupid and it bothers me. It’s like calling Wisconsin “Whiskers” or calling Purdue the “Boils” instead of the “Boilers.”
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Just so I'm clear on this
If Mizzou and/or Rutgers switch to the B1G, their TV ratings will suddenly be good enough for the B1G to be excited about them?
Unless a team can add around $50 million to the conference revenue pool, all they do is take money away from the others. So when everybody is tossing names around, just remember that that $50,000,000 is priority #1 with a bullet.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
by Flakbait on Sep 19, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not really about ratings
It’s about cable households. NYC has alot of them (5+ million). Assuming Syracuse or Rutgers brings that NYC market, they pay for themselves several times over. Ratings only matter for the first tier rights (why Delaney ended up with Nebraska). The success of the BTN shows that while those matter, the third tier rights can be just as valuable.
don't forget that
the number of cable subscribers is going down and the importance of ratings and programing that will draw advertising dollars is going up. Hence the importance of a school like Nebraska because people with no affiliation to that school will tune in to watch a game. Will someone with no affiliation tune in to watch Missouri or Rutgers? I wouldn’t bet on it, but they each offer a possibility of something attractive so they have a chance.
I don’t think that the SEC jumps at the chance to add Missouri either, but might grab a West Virginia instead. Who knows. I will be happy once the cards settle.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 19, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, it's about ratings, too
The BTN has more subscribers outside the geographic footprint than inside, but bigger ratings mean they can charge more for advertising.
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Ratings matter most in 2015 when the ABC/ESPN deal is up
for the BTN, and most successful cable networks, advertising is the cherry on top of the sundae, the sundae being subscriber fees. Whipped cream in the BTN’s case is the out-of-footprint subscribers (and people with dishes).
While I agree cable households are going to go down, that likely means TV households are going down, as well. People aren’t leaving cable to go back to rabbit ears, they’re going to alternate media over the internet. Until these streams are monetized, cable households is what matters to a cable network.
Yeah, I feel like you're right here.
The B1G will not expand at this point unless Notre Dame and/or Texas is available.
We bandy about Mizzou, OU, and whomever else out east, but nothing appears overly viable because every team, for all the good reasons, has their own particular bugaboo which prevents them from coming to the B1G (UNC/Duke basketball, Kansas with K-State, etc). I honestly just can’t see Our Master Jim expanding for the sake of adding 2 teams to make 14 if neither of the teams is on the level of a Nebraska pickup.
If Mizzou were available with someone else notable and good, then sure. But expansion for the sake of keeping up is certainly not Delany’s style.
As far as your "game" is concerned, though,
If the ACC expands to 16, and they give Penn State a call for that 16 spot, you would have to think that they would at least consider it.
There are a lot of perks to being in the B1G, but a lot of Penn State folks would love to be in an east coast based conference.
In the deed, the glory.
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I don't think so.
Bama is right, you don’t shoot the golden goose. Nothing about the ACC is proven at this point other than that it was worse off at 12 teams than it was at 9.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
True and false
Penn State issues a quick “no thank you.”
However, the ACC is in much better financial shape since expansion to 12 teams. Don’t confuse winning football games with winning dollars.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
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by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess that's just to say
that even if the ACC is creating more revenue than they did before, the duality of the BTN/CIC cash flow is just too good a deal to walk away from.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Penn State is not going to the ACC...
It took twenty years for many of us to adjust to the present environment while the younger generations know nothing else. The bridges to our old eastern independent rivals have either been burned or allowed to fall into disrepair. Those who still care about the Lambert Trophy days are getting old and their influence will soon wane.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
PSU
is not and will not go to the ACC. Financially it would be a real hit. The younger alumni and fans have no memory of the PSU-Pitt rivalry. Neither Syracuse not Maryland were real rivals as those series were totally lopsided (Syracuse from the mid-60’s on and Maryland always).
"You can't handle the truth!"
Are we way behind now?
Bama and Midnight touch on the topic, but I think we need a post asking if all that we were trumpeting about last year has turned 180 on us?
- ACC seems to be grabbing our #15/16 type teams.
- ACC itself seems much harder to poach, stronger and the $20m exit fee.
- Mizzu the big prize now? For school and population, but also as a defense against SEC?
- PAC 1X could end up on the top of the heap if they get TX with OK.
I don’t know if we were outmaneuvered, if the academics “held us back” (re: OK), if we were greedy waiting on ND/TX, or what happened. Clearly, we are in a different position, a reactive position it would seem.
I think a big question really is do we have to add Mizzu, KU, etc merely to get to the inevitable 16? Can we stay at 12? Or is it a landgrab at this point?
by InflectionPoint on Sep 19, 2011 2:06 PM CDT reply actions
I guess my response would be
when did a 16-team conference prove superior to 12? The only way the B1G has definitely lost in all of this is if it makes a move someone else forces it to make.
Maintaining the conference’s ideals has worked awfully well up until now, I think eschewing them for the shiny new thing would be a grave mistake. And let’s be honest, the ACC and Pac-? haven’t spent a day in their “new” formats. 6-8 years from now a whole line of beggars could be at the B1G’s doorstep.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Repeat with me calmly and slowly
16 is not inevitable.
16 is not inevitable.
16 is not inevitable.
Adding teams just to add teams reduces the amount of conference payouts per team. If the Big Ten thought that Pitt/Syracuse/Rutgers/whatever would add value to the conference average, they would have added those schools last summer.
Seriously, why are people panicking about Pitt and Syracuse? Pittsburgh has more Penn State fans than Pitt fans, and Syracuse is basically Northwestern if Northwestern wer worse academically, worse at football, and 200 miles away from Chicago.
by nuftw on Sep 19, 2011 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Syracuse is arguably better than Northwestern at basketball
You conveniently left out that part.
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by babaoreally on Sep 20, 2011 11:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm highly flattered that you included the word "arguably"
but football is 10 times more important than basketball.
How much "worse" academically?
These arguments are getting tiresome.
I’m so bemused by how many people are trying to explain away possible schools because of academics: “Syracuse is worse academically” or “Kansas sucks at academics” or “Louisville is a shitty school” or whatever. People did the same thing to Nebraska.
OK: Syracuse is not Northwestern. We get it. But it’s still up there as one of the top schools in the nation. Is there actually THAT much difference between the No. 20-whatever and No. 50-whatever university in the country?
(Answer: No, because those rankings mean very, very little.)
I mean, really? Syracuse is a fine school. So is Nebraska. And Kansas. Louisville I don’t know, but, Christ: We’re not talking about the difference between Oxford and Grand Valley State University here.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
This is some bullshit.
I, for one, will not stand idly by while you besmirch the good name of Grand Valley State!
/slaps with white glove
Name your seconds, sir.
by MNWildcat on Sep 21, 2011 3:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
GVSU can eat it
GLIAC hate is a special kind of hate. Louis the Laker needs to give Popeye his schtick back. Asshole.
(They’re better than my alma mater at sports but I otherwise I have no real reason to hate anything about them. But hey, D-II hate. We’ve gotta have our rivalries, too.)
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
I love this.
(1) I hate that I knew what the GLIAC stands for.
(2) Which GLIAC school did you attend?
(3) It’s good that you have hate. Let it flow through you. I was raised in a household where my mother came from a D-III university with a strong rivalry, so the lower-tier hate is no stranger to me.
I went to Hillsdale College
Which is a liberal arts college in between Ann Arbor, Jackson, K-Zoo and Fort Wayne (basically, the middle of nowhere in southern Michigan). Why Hillsdale (enrollment 1,500) is in D-II and not D-III is beyond me, but we mostly play directional state schools like GVSU and Wayne State and Michigan Tech (average enrollment 15,000… Wayne has like 35,000 but it’s literally in the D and is mostly a commuter school). There are a few other liberal arts schools in Ohio and one in Chicago in there, but mostly it’s regional state schools.
Hillsdale still manages to do okay in sports despite this. Mostly we look down upon those schools in the same ways that, say, a Northwestern fan would look down upon UI or SIU and whatnot. Especially GVSU. Because they win national titles all the damn time in every sport and have really nice facilities and basically get all the good D-II athletes because lots of them can’t get into Hillsdale.
Anyway, I guess it’s somewhat hypocritical for me to criticize Northwestern fans for looking down upon Syracuse’s academics when I do the same within the weirdly small confines of D-II. But at the same time I feel like Syracuse (or insert whoever here) is much closer to Northwestern than a regional state school like GVSU would be to a liberal arts school like Hillsdale. Apples and oranges, I guess, but still.
Also: I guess it’s also kind of weird for me to be a big MSU fan even though I didn’t go there, so maybe I just don’t understand the whole B1G/“other school” academic divide as much as someone who actually attended one.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Its not Pitt and Cuse
It’s that perhaps the ACC is safe now.
So TV set whales or academic whales of the ACC such as MD, UNC, VA that were dreamed up over the past 24 months are arguably off the table now.
by InflectionPoint on Sep 19, 2011 2:33 PM CDT reply actions
It's not clear that they were ever on the table to begin with
I have read far too much expansion discussion, and no one has ever given me a reasonable scheme where the Big Ten would add those schools. There are too many of them that are too closely connected.
I agree
But the one scenario I considered was if the SEC took FSU and VT, really hurting ACC football, and the BE and B12 remnants joined forces. Maybe, just maybe, the ACC core would consider moving as a group to the B10.
Why? Makes no sense
going from the belle of the ball in one conference to just another school in another.
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No school has ever chosen a less competitive/prestigious conference just so they could win at football
Minnesota isn’t going to join the MAC just so they can win MAC conference titles. Texas won’t join the WAC. Texas A&M forcibly left a conference where they were 3rd (in resources if not in record) to go to a conference where they will be 7th or 8th.
Schools move conferences for money and prestige, not wins and losses.
Florida State did...
The SEC wanted them twenty years ago, not South Carolina.
"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world" -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
And the disparity between football and basketball deals wasn't so immense.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 1:59 AM CDT up reply actions
$$$$
The answer should be obvious.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
That's probably the most likely scenario, but it's still a shot in the dark
It’s unclear if FSU would be invited by the SEC (depending on how credible the “no schools in footprint states” agreement was). They might not join; VT just pulled a lot of political cred to get into the ACC. I don’t know if they could screw over UVA by leaving. FSU likes some of prestige they received from associating with the UNC/UVA/Duke world.
Either way, this scenario was dependent on the SEC making the first move, and they didn’t. There’s nothing the B1G could have done.
I hear ya re: ACC
Those teams were perhaps never poachable. However, the never-ending realignment debate had us B1Gers convinced we were only landing whales or near-whales. Hence MD, UNC, even Miami talk way back when. And, our expansion history only corroborated that whale-theory.
We’ve never done a Ark/SC expansion.
by InflectionPoint on Sep 19, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
The B1G is only landing whales or near-whales
and will never do an Ark/SC expansion. That’s why the Big Ten is likely staying at 12 for the foreseeable future, unless a whale (ND or Texas) is available.
The saddest thing
is that both of those whales would now likely be available if the Texas State Legislature wasn’t full of, well, Texans. UT wants to compete in a conference of like-minded schools and Notre Dame wants to play in a “national” conference. Bring those two in and throw in a Georgia Tech/Maryland/Rutgers/whatever, and you’d have pretty much accomplished that. A lot changes in a year.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions
It seems like Oklahoma would be an easier target...
Closer to the region, probably a little PO’ed about the Longhorn network, and a very big whale, but maybe without the Texas attitude
aTm is still an outlier in that
And they actually have decent academics as well. Very outside the box, but adding OU/aTm/ND/Mizzou would be a jackpot deal as well.
When we get the Pig, the Jug and the Axe, we'll have one hell of a picnic
I believe that's a reference to my continued suggestion of those schools who,
I believe firmly, would have been very tempted to head West if offered a passage as a group prior to all of this other movement. UVA, UNC & Duke (and to a lesser degree, UMD) are a joint package and one that I truly feel would have been a fine addition to the league.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 1:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Admittedly about the "who" rather than the "how," thought this NYT article was illuminating...
As to some of the demographics underlying the realignment talk.
The article forgets one big thing
passion. If we take those fan numbers as gospel, which they aren’t and the article admits that, then Rutgers is 75% as popular as Nebraska. But those Nebraska fans are probably each worth three Rutgers fans in terms of product consumption.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Product how?
In terms of team? Agreed. In terms of buying more Barbasol? I don’t think that’s necessarily he case.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Team
and Redneck Comedy Tour tickets, where it’s about 25 to 1.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Let me know when Tom Arnold goes on tour again.
by Albino Tornado on Sep 19, 2011 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
At least he has the decency to know he sucks.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Getting back to the how...
the semi-final thing is enticing. Could be a huge bonanza for the conference, I like it.
But I’m kind of rethinking the 16 team thing. 12 seems optimum, 14 seems just a bit too big, and 16 doesn’t feel like a conference anymore.
But if it’s inevitable, this pod set up is the best.
"I'm crazy? Cyril, you're the one who killed a perfectly good hooker!"--Sterling Archer
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Pod set-up is the better
but two divisions (preferably east & west…) is best.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions
My 4 teams
Maryland, Kansas, Missouri, Virginia.
We put all the teams in a lotto machine first 8 out are one division. Other 8 are other division. Play 9 conference games. Rotating through the teams in the other division.
by Delaware Boiler on Sep 19, 2011 4:05 PM CDT reply actions
I don't think any ACC teams are going anywhere
It would cost them way too much money to leave the ACC now. Unless the B1G agreed to pay their $20 million exit fee, they probably won’t be going anywhere.
The $20 million fee isn't as daunting as it seems
when deferred payouts and group “fundraising” are taken into consideration (remember, it’s an investment). However, more daunting in this scenario is the inclusion of Virginia. Maryland is the only one of the ACC’s “core four” that has both legislative and emotional autonomy; it’s never been a true “blue blood” in the eyes of UVA, UNC & Duke. Virginia, however, has glue-like bonds with Carolina and Duke and has some tricky legal ties with Va Tech.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions
The Facts:
Kansas is not splitting from KSU
B1G wont expand unless ND is involved
Penn ST is not leaving B1G
The ACC is going to 16
PAC xx & SEC are probably going to 16
B1G is probably not going to 16
2 of the 3 conferences (Big East, Big 12, MWC) that are “outside” of the big 4 will merge/ join together to make the 5th major conference.
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
Te "Big Mountain East of the West 12" conference
Nebraska, The Good Life
Keith Stone, always smooth
by Beranek5225 on Sep 19, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Impatience.
Had Utah, BYU and TCU stuck around, the MWC would likely be taking the Big East’s BCS spot in 5 years when Boise’s accomplishments over that period were factored into the review process. As it stands now, every one of those schools is even more the outsider or underdog that they were before.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Except Utah
who got a golden ticket
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Sep 20, 2011 5:09 AM CDT up reply actions
From an overall standpoint as an institution, absolutely.
But my underdog tag still applies as they are far less likely to win the Pac-? in football than they would have been in even an improved MWC.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Kansas is not splitting from KSU- probably true
B1G wont expand unless ND is involved- true unless something weird happens with Texas
Penn ST is not leaving B1G- true
The ACC is going to 16- probably true
PAC xx is going to 16- They’re sure as hell going to try. Either the PacX or Texas will have to give in on the LHN though.
SEC is probably going to 16- I don’t think so. If the ACC schools are off limits, there aren’t 3 available schools that add to the SEC. It’s arguable whether A&M + whoever adds to the per-school result.
B1G is probably not going to 16- true
2 of the 3 conferences (Big East, Big 12, MWC) that are "outside" of the big 4 will merge/ join together to make the 5th major conference- true, but I don’t think it will include any MWC teams. It’s more likely to have a couple CUSA teams than that.
Assuming UConn and Rutgers go to the ACC, Missouri to the SEC, something like:
WVU
Louisville
USF
Cincinnati
TCU
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Baylor
Houston
UCF
ECU
I dont think you can count out the MWC yet...
IF (I know thas a BIG if) they pick up Kansas, KSU, Iowa St & Baylor I think they have a shot at grabbing 2 more solid teams (BYU, TCU, Houston, Ohio) and becoming their own 16 team conference.
They have their own network that is up and running (more than PAC or LHN can say), they would cover 11 or so states, including Texas and California. They would have the recruitment perk of having Hawaii on the schedual.
Wether they get the Big 12’s AQ status or get one on their own (Those teams would easily get the AQ status) they would be a really descent 5th conference.
I think the leftover Big 12 fan base sees more in commom with teams out west than teams on the East Coast.
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
From what I understand
Every school in the Mountain West hates their network. They have huge distribution problems and BYU left because of it.
If the Big 12 orphans have a choice, I can’t see them going with the MWC over the Big East, especially since they have a much better shot at keeping a BCS bid if they are under the Big 12 or Big East banner than trying to get a new one with the MWC.
true
plus Hawaii isn’t a perk it’s a death knell for athletic department profitability. Remember that every sport has to play there and those tickets are not cheap. The smaler schools with large distances to travel is a large part of what killed the last 16 team conference.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 19, 2011 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hawaii is football only
Other sports are in the Big West… So only team that needs to travel is football and in exchange get an extra 13th game at home to make up for the travel expense…
Hawaii is Football only
No Women’s badmitten trips.
You get to promise your recruits a trip to the islands once every 2 or 4 years. Plus you get a extra game every year you play them
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
so I guess Hawaii gets to poison another league then, right?
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 20, 2011 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions
And yet every bit as likely to sell out their championship game as the ACC
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That picture...
…will always crack me up.
by Big Game Today on Sep 20, 2011 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Read this...
http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/
A great article about the numbers (fans) that are connected to each team and why and how some the teams are possible choices for expansion for every conference.
2 things I learned from this:
If the B1G get Notre Dame they would be best served to take Rutgers with them.
Rutgers has the largest share of the New York Market (@ 20%) and Notre Dame’s largest fan base is in New York. So when added together the B1G would get the most value out of getting ND by also getting Rutgers.
Also if you add up the fans of the other B1G schools the B1g would have @ 50% of the New York fan base.
The other thing I learned is Mizzou is the only real viable expansion target in the Big 12(other than OU, Texas and TA&M) becuase the rest dont have any real fan base at all, including Kansas.
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
Interesting read, but suspect methodology
Questionable that Georgia Tech would have more football fans than Georgia, or Auburn more than Alabama. Doesn’t smell right.
Same screen name since AOL- 'cause like many Nebraska fans, I'm stuck in the '90s.
It's not.
Georgia is more popular in Atlanta than Georgia Tech. Hell, Florida is more popular in Atlanta than Georgia Tech.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:23 AM CDT up reply actions
As a matter of fact--
We here at Big Red Country, being the new kid on the block, are gonna stand aside and let Delaney and company determine the best course for our new B1G home. One request-and it is made with all due respect—please DO NOT in any way, shape or form entertain extending an invite to Texas. It would be such a freakin mistake given their history of killing every conference they join. As well as other reasons that I will intentionally and selectively omit. Lol.
I actually wouldn't mind Texas.
Open up that recruiting door to Texas again. The games between the two schools were always great games even though they rarely turned out in our favor.
In the deed, the glory.
Corn Nation!
Follow @Aaron_Musfeldt
by Aaron Musfeldt on Sep 19, 2011 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
You would love having Texas as a member of the B1G
because it would mean that, for once, they would be on equal footing as everyone else since there’s no way they’d get in otherwise.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Respectfully, I disagree
Texas will never act like the socialist member needed in these conference affiliations. They will always find a reason to bitch about something, special concessions, etc, etc. If they go to the Pac xx, given how far Austin is from wherever in hell the Pac xx office is (certainly 2 time zones), USC, Stanford and Cal will learn to fucking hate them, the same as Nebraska did when Texas told their “new” conference partners OU-UT had to be preserved at the expense of OU-NU.
Then they won't join the B1G. Ever.
"I'm crazy? Cyril, you're the one who killed a perfectly good hooker!"--Sterling Archer
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Eh
I was willing to put up with their shit until I saw their band’s uniforms.
No, I’m sorry. This is not Halloween. They can go play dress-up with the rest of the Pac-infinity.
by metatron5369 on Sep 20, 2011 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Both Texas and OK Board of Regents approved them leaving B XII today
"I'm crazy? Cyril, you're the one who killed a perfectly good hooker!"--Sterling Archer
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The Pac 12 is plural?
“Oklahoma State has attractive options and we are working with our colleagues at the University of Oklahoma to make sure the best interests of both institutions and our state are achieved,” Oklahoma State President Burns Hargis added. “We will be prepared at the appropriate time to take whatever steps are necessary for Oklahoma State.”
"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass
by chitownhawkeye on Sep 19, 2011 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Apparently there are still issues to overcome, above all the LHN.
The Oklahoma twosome does not have to find a place for their own TV network, but apparently some of the PAC presidents and chancellors—i.e. the people who actually care about academics—are not sold on the wisdom of adding OU and OSU.
Texas and Texas Tech, as others have said, are a separate entry in the PAC-16 sweepstakes. That is, they are not tethered to OU and OSU, who have decided to go to the PAC regardless of what Texas, and hence Texas Tech, does. But Texas does not want to give up the LHN. The LHN, of course, is a big reason the Big 12 is dying before our eyes.
My guess is the Ivory Tower people will be placated, muscled, or bought off, and the Texas Two and Oklahoma Two will both land in the PAC.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 19, 2011 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I touched on the 4 pod system a week or two ago. I like your idea Bama, but I am not sure it will work with the floating game (reminds me of how I’d like to split FBS into 6 10 team BCS conferences and 6 10 team non-BCS conferences). But I digress.
If we go to a 4 po system, I strongly believe that the permanent rival will end up in the division, not out of it. I foresee three division games and two games each from the other 3 divisions on a home and road schedule. This way, every B1G school plays every school twice every four years. Using your example above (although I disagree on some of the 4 choices)
B1G 1: Penn State, Connecticut, Notre Dame, Purdue
B1G 2: Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Illinois
B1G 3 Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, Indiana
B1G 4: Missouri, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska
Am sure some of those would be moved around.
Using OSU for example:
Year 1: @Michigan, Michigan State, @Illinois, Penn State, @Connecticut, Wisconsin, @Minnesota, Missouri, @Iowa
Year 2: Michigan, @Michigan State, Illinois, @Penn State, Connecticut, @Wisconsin, Minnesota, @Missouri, Iowa
Year 3: @Michigan, Michigan State, @Illinois, Notre Dame, @Purdue, Northwestern, @Indiana, Kansas, @Nebraska
Year 4: Michigan, @Michigan State, Illinois, @Notre Dame, Purdue, @Northwestern, Indiana, @Kansas, Nebraska
That's a lot of work to go to
for a scenario that doesn’t have Kansas State joining Kansas.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:25 AM CDT up reply actions
that's actually pretty easy
they become the 16th and final team after all the other are announced. One or nothing is the only way to force that one.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 20, 2011 6:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I really enjoyed this article, Bama
as you likely knew going in, most of the discussion has been about conference expansion in general, something that many people are sick of hearing about.
and that’s too bad, because what’s great about this article is it gives a terrific blueprint for how a 16 team conference would work in practice. that’s something i always wondered about but never saw explained anywhere else, so nice job coming up with a completely new take on a topic that is rapidly turning stale.
keep up the good work sir.
by Loretta8 on Sep 19, 2011 9:11 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
im really surprised that syracuse is going to the acc
i would have put money on them joining the B1G (i really don’t like typing that but whatever ill get used to it i guess). so im curious…
did the B1G get blindsided by this, not seeing it coming, or is your conference just not interested in syracuse?
BIG needs to expand south of the Mason-Dixon
If invited, Fl St, Ga Tech, OU and Ok St would jump in a New York minute.
Dikaia Upotheke - Justice Our Foundation
ou's president has said their are only two options he's willing to consider, big12 and pac12
and by that i mean he’s come right out and said it flat out, publicly. he’s not leaving any doubt about it, it’s that brazen.
by Quacker Backer on Sep 19, 2011 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Because he knows they would never be allowed in the B1G.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:26 AM CDT up reply actions
And because....
….saying you really wanna join the B1G didn’t work out too well for the last Big 12 team to do it.
/Mizzou sad trombone.
by Chadnudj on Sep 20, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
FL St. and GA Tech? No.
Considering that these schools just voted to up the exit fee from the ACC to $20 million, I don’t think they’re planning on going anywhere.
Academics
Oklahoma and Oklahoma State are A Bridge Too Far in terms of academic standing to be considered for the B1G. That may apply to FSU as well.
Also see my comments above about over-estimating the gravitational pull of the B1G.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 20, 2011 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Got to say I hate this
But if forced to choose the only solution for a 16 team conference is the Pod system with a Semi-Final playoff game (where 1-plays-1, 2-plays-2, etc). Assuming 9 conference games I see 3 options (assuming the preservation of a rival).
16 Pod w/ 2 Rival – Plays six every year, nine 2-on 4-off with no semi
16 Pod w/ 1 Rival – Plays four every year, one 4-on and 2-off, ten 2-on 4-off with semi
16 Division w/ Rival – Plays eight every year and seven 2-on 12-off
Pod can somewhat be called a conference… Division setup is two conferences under one house, and thus inherently unstable due to lack of year-to-year contact. Compare that to 12 and 14 game divisional setups.
14 Division w/ Rival – Plays seven every year, and six 4-on 8-off
12 Division w/ Rival – Plays six ever year, and five 6-on 4-off
Or the current 8 game schedule the Big Ten uses
12 Division w/ Rival – Plays six every year, and five 4-on and 6-off
Notre Dame, Missouri, Rutgers, Kansas
Those are the teams, and this only happens if Notre Dame jumps.
The only way the Big Ten does anything is if Notre Dame or Texas want in. otherwise its perfectly content to stay at 12. If ND decides to jump the flaming wreck that is the ACC, then i would guess it would offer the teams that both fit in academically and offer something in return.
All three of these teams are AAU members. Two are in significant areas and one is a really really REALLY good basketball school. It may not be as flashy football wise as getting the Texas and Oklahoma schools, but we need to remember that with this deal the conference would have 4 of the top fanbases and 8 or 9 of the top 20 to 25 fanbases, the most popular football team in NY, the entire midwest TV sets, a bunch of schools that would fit in with each other pretty well, and a pretty nice basketball conference.
personally, im not fond of expanding to 16 teams, but if we had to, i would think these four schools would be a net gain overall for the conference overall, even if its not necessarily a gain on the football side right away.
"Your spelling and grammar errors belie a seriously skilled thought process"- therealCatnuts
by justsomehawkeyefan on Sep 19, 2011 11:14 PM CDT reply actions
Also, two of the four have wrestling
and i doubt Kansas and Notre Dame would be opposed to starting it if the big ten asked nicely, so thats always a positive from my Iowa fan POV.
"Your spelling and grammar errors belie a seriously skilled thought process"- therealCatnuts
by justsomehawkeyefan on Sep 19, 2011 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I love collegiate wrestling.
That said, NCAA wrestling programs at major schools are only contracting these days, not the other way around.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I think we will all wish this never happened
What happens when the state of Iowa finds the Iowa State budget cut by $10mil per year by the actions of conferences and supposedly partner universities affiliated with for profit TV networks? Or the state of Kansas sees something similar at two of its universities? Its hard to claim non-profit status when you are in a partnership with a profit making venture and are making decisions that result in the best profit for that venture. Let alone a huge increase in the number of people thinking monopoly and threatening lawsuits. College spots lives in a much more precarious spot legally than fans want to recognize… I’m afraid the backlash could be massive.
by cokolman on Sep 19, 2011 11:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You are a sane person.
What are you doing on a college sports blog?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:28 AM CDT up reply actions
indeed the backlash could be massive
although the flipside to that is that public contributions to universities have been shrinking for decades and schools have simply coped. The schools needed a cashcow once the states started in with the “why should we pay for this” mantra. They all made their own beds and now they can just lay there.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Sep 20, 2011 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Better Pods
I think this is better
Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Northwestern
Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois
Michigan, Notre Dame, Michigan St., Indiana
Purdue, Northeast school of choice, Penn St., Ohio St.
by goldyrules on Sep 19, 2011 11:47 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Switch Purdue and Indiana
and I think you’ve got it!
by Dan TrueBlue on Sep 20, 2011 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions
My guess is that Notre Dame will remain independent
My guess is that Notre Dame remains independent as long as they can still put together a schedule. And as long as we aren’t talking about 10 game conference schedules Michigan, State, Purdue, USC, Stanford, Pitt, BC, and the three service academies will continue to play Irish year-in and year-out.
And the Irish will feel no threat to its non-football teams with a basketball-only Big East with a major market catholic base of DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, St. John’s, Seton Hall, and Villanova. And plenty of quality non-football teams to add if they want to solidify the conference… Richmond, Xavier, and Butler to name a few.
And this is why I have my doubts about ND joining a football conference.
Only when ND can no longer do a partial B1G and partial Big East (well, ACC) schedule will they be forced to give up Independent status.The B1G is not going to lure Notre Dame in otherwise.
While I am not as certain as some that the B1G will not expand to fourteen schools unless ND is part of it, Notre Dame will be able to go on playing the UM, MSU, Purdue, and/or some one else in the B1G until the B1G goes to sixteen, and I do not think the B1G goes to sixteen unless Notre Dame is involved.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 20, 2011 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure this would tick a lot of people off...
But why not circle the wagons and tell Michigan & Michigan State to not schedule ND anymore. Notre Dame’s strength of schedule falls off a cliff as they would just have USC and Stanford as the only potentially ranked teams.
No Chance
For MSU and Michigan fans, there’s a lot of tradition in those games. They’d sooner shorten the b10 (no 1 between b and g for me) schedule by a game.
Paul
You're thinking of Purdue, not Michigan.
The Michigan series has been far more competitive and largely memorable but only played yearly since 1978. Purdue has been on the Irish’s schedule since the late 30’s.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Since everyone else has thought this out carefully, my preferred additions:
Brazil, Mars, Westeros and Narnia.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 2:30 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Are you kidding?!
You can’t take Mars without Venus.
And Brazil’s going to hold onto their independent status. Good try.
Venus doesn't have the same pull she once had on Olympus.
I think the two can be separated.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Regardless
you’re still predicating this on the idea that Brazil will want to join a conference when their independent status and lucrative TV deal could prevent them from being brought back into the conference network.
Their television deal is largely due to their holding network heads hostage.
No, that’s it. Brazilians know kidnapping like nobody’s business.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 21, 2011 1:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I imagine this posted in cut-out magazine letters.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 21, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Brazil is a great party school
but shitty academics
"I'm crazy? Cyril, you're the one who killed a perfectly good hooker!"--Sterling Archer
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Westeros is clearly SEC material...
Sibling love is not as big a deal down there.
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
And Narnia...
…..is sticking to its independent status, with guaranteed annual matchups with That School in South Bend, BYU, and the Telemarines.
Dude, Brazil's academics are so shitty
Not even in the top 85!
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Nate Silver: still awesome
For the record, I’d be ok with adding Notre Dame, Missouri, Kansas, and Rutgers.
I’d also be fine with doing nothing.
My scenario
B1G adds Rutgers (ugh, but likely), Missouri, Virginia, and Maryland
East Pod: PSU, RU, UVA, Maryland (Penn State wins this pod 9 out of 10 years)
South Pod: Illinois, Mizzou, Purdue, Indiana (weakly competitive)
North Pod: MSU, Mich, OSU, NW (Yikes)
West Pod: Wiscy, Minny, Nebby, Iowy (Yikes, part deux)
"Everyone who drinks is not a poet. Maybe some of us drink because we're not poets." - Arthur Bach
As long as we're talking fantasies...
What if there were a systemic conference realignment… the top 16 teams of the Big East and ACC would form an Eastern BCS Conference, another top-tier 16 team conference forms in Middle America (made up of Big 10, Big 12, & Notre Dame), and then, a West Coast/Mountain Conference of the top 16 teams out there would form. The remaining 70 or so teams would be responsible for creating other mid-major conferences. At year-end, the top-ranked mid-major team would get a spot in the BCS 4-team playoff where:
- BCS seed plays Mid-Major seed
- BCS seed plays #3 BCS seed
That came out wrong at the end
No. 1 BCS seed plays Mid-Major seed
No. 2 BCS seed plays No. 3 BCS seed
I don't wanna go east
I’d rather take Missouri and any of the old B12 schools (Kansas and K-ST?) —
Paul
Supposedy West Virginia Has Been Rejected By Both The ACC and SEC
No way would WVU make the cut academically in the B1G, so they are probably stuck in the whatever Conference of Misfit Toys emerges from the Big East and Big 12 leftovers.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 20, 2011 10:58 AM CDT reply actions
Updated ND blurb
My apologies if somebody already posted this, but I saw a blurb on ESPN this morning that of course ND would prefer to stay independent, but if they are forced to have their football program join a conference they are looking to join the ACC, not the B1G. So I think any fantasies about having ND in the B1G should be let go.
No surprise at all there.
It will probably be a while before ND is forced to re-think their devotion to Independent status, but when they do things may change in terms of conference preference.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 20, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
They are trying to toy with B1G
“Tell them we want to go to the ACC ad see if they offer more money!”
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
So would winning your Quad go as follows?
1. Conference Record
2. Quad Record
3. Overall winning Record
4. Head-to-Head
5. Some type of points scored metric
Assuming that only two teams were vying for winning the Quad,
I would think it would go like this:
1. Conference Record
2. Quad Record
3. Head-to-Head
4. Overall winning Record
5. Higher BCS ranking
I'm dumb
If it were only two teams, it would end with Head-to-Head. My list should be for three or more teams with the same record.
Didn't feel like reading over 200 posts
…so if I’ve repeated someone else’s thought….
The Quad alignment you’ve come up with certainly gives more validity to the sayings, “That Team Up North” (UM) and “That Team Down South” (tOSU)
Question
When a permanent rival game appears due to quad rotation, the league swaps opponents
Maybe my math is off, but what if during a year that a rival game appears, let a team have one additional OOC game…so every four years you have 8-4 conf/ooc split….sort of like a leap year?
As much as some ppl hate the idea of further expansion
it seems inevitable and necessary at this point just to stay competitive. What worries me is that if Delaney REALLY means it when he says no more expansion or if it’s just a ploy. If he’s not actively working on this, the B1G gets left in the dust. He needs to be looking at teams/schools that are a good fit based on 1) proximity 2) quality of teams.
You may have noticed that I left out academics. Let’s be honest, that’s not what expansion/re-alignment is about. It’s about revenue and market share. Would it be nice to add a school that meets AAU standards, etc YES, but it’s not what this is all about at the end of the day.
i don’t really like the idea of adding Rutgers because they’re not good, and we really won’t add the NY market by adding them. Iowa state is mediocre at best too. Mizzou… I guess I’d take. But why isn’t anyone talking about WVU again??
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 12:19 PM CDT reply actions
I'd be happy to take WVU
But I think the B1G prides itself, at least in part, to being second only to the Ivy League in terms of academic prowess. So they are always going take that part into consideration, even though we all know that the academics have nothing to do with success on the football field.
I know that they'll take it in to consideration at least in part...
but, did that come in to play with Nebraska? As much as AAU status is talked about it didn’t matter at the end of the day. It was about competitiveness on the field.
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
We don't really know that
because Nebby was in the AAU when they joined, and their overall academics are good.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
TCU and South Florida
From the standpoints of TV viewers and recruiting, adding TCU and South Florida might be attractive to the BTN and certainly to the ACC.
My apologies if I'm ignorant on this,
but doesn’t the B1G still have a rule where any new members must be in a state within or bordered by the current footprint of the B1G? Or has that changed?
Not a rule
But there’s no way that the Big Ten will add the 4th (5th? 6th?) most popular schools in their state.
CBS Claims The SEC Has Made An Invitation To Missouri
Said offer pending what happens to the Big 12.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 20, 2011 1:34 PM CDT reply actions
Just read that
There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you.
- Woody Hayes
@normconquest
by Culp's Freaking Hill on Sep 20, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
this is what i'm talking about
a team that’s a good fit for the B1G gets another invite because someone is asleep at the wheel.
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Psh.
If the B1G wanted Mizzou, they’d have them already.
/falsesenseofsuperiortyignoranced
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
Do you honestly believe
that Delaney is doing nothing right now? Or that he does not have solid info as to what is going on?
Whatever the B1G plan is, he is working furiously to make it happen. And likely quite happy that everybody seems content to ignore him in favor of the commotion.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
yes
well, no. I ope not at least. It’s just with the moves that are going on now, in theory, the B1G will be stuck with leftovers that won’t make the conference better.
As much as everyone gets on the “ND had their chance” bandwagon, we need to add them, and then punish them for their decision.
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
2 responses here....
1. Until there is a contract signed, nothing is final. Trust me, if it looks like 16-teams are inevitable, EVERY school that’s currently on the board and a realistic option for the B1G (Mizzou, Kansas, Oklahoma, Ok State, Texas, Notre Dame, Rutgers, UConn — regardless of your opinion of the viability/attractiveness of each) will take Delany’s phone calls. Jeez, Mizzou’s president and AD would probably crawl from Columbia to the B1G offices in Lake Forest/Chicago for an invite, the SEC be damned. (We fit Mizzou’s culture much better, and the academics are a MUCH better fit/easier sell to the trustees and professors). Delany’s not “sitting on the outside” on any of this. When he wants to put his chips on the table and play, he’ll be given a seat.
2. There is no such thing as “getting stuck with leftovers.” Remember, conference expansion DOES NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. Twelve teams, millions of fans, hundreds of millions of dollars….the B1G will be fine sticking at 12, regardless of what everyone else does. It’s hard to imagine a situation where we’d HAVE to expand….it’s only if we WANT to expand. It may be that 16 team leagues are the future….but that’ll only be becaue Delany DECIDES it’s the future.
Look, the SEC and B1G are always going to get comparative money from networks, etc. (assuming Texas/ND don’t join up). Why wouldn’t Delany sit at 12 teams if the SEC only adds A&M and Mizzou? The SEC isn’t good at math — 14 teams dividing the network dollars means less money per team than the B1G’s 12 teams splitting the same network dollars.
If it comes down to the B1G having 12 and SEC having 16 teams..
what would you think if the SEC got 2 BCS bids? Or the PAC16, etc?
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
x
There is more money potential in expansion than anything else we’re looking at now. If we don’t get into it, somebody else will, maybe one of the 5 BCS conferences, maybe all of them. And with the money they earn they’ll be able to buy more police and political power. Then they come after us. Right now we have the Big Ten Network and we have a competitive conference and those are the best things to have. But expansion is a thing of the future. If we don’t get a piece of that action we risk everything we have. Not now, but ten years from now.
by Nasty N8 on Sep 21, 2011 1:39 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Automatic Godfather rec
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by Graham Filler on Sep 26, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Delany doesn't feel the need to do anything.
The two “home runs” are not going to be joining the B1G any time soon, if ever: Notre Dame can stay independent and prefers to do so, even if they are not as inclined to the ACC if need be as they claim, and Me-First Texas, regardless of academic fit and football cachet, will not, IMO give up all of their Big 12 Most Favored Nation Status to join the B1G. Of course, Texas will probably wind up in the PAC.
If Missouri goes to the SEC (and supposedly they would prefer the B1G), then another nice alternate is gone. Pitt and Syracuse are off the table, with UConn and Rutgers possibly to follow. After that, the B1G is down to Kansas, Kansas State, Louisville, and the like. (I’ve never believed Maryland, Virginia, or Virginia Tech, much less North Carolina and Duke, were realistic options.)
The situation is still very fluid, but I’m starting to hope those who say the B1G has no need to expand are right, because if they are wrong the B1G expansion options may be starting to narrow.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 20, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
if the "super conferences" scenario plays out
ND will HAVE to join one. they won’t have anyone left to play.
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
ND's future schedule:
Michigan
@Michigan State
Purdue
@USC
Stanford
@Navy
Navy
@Army
Army
@BYU
BYU
Navy
by wibrownguy on Sep 20, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
what I'm saying is....
, they can play army navy and byu 4 times each and win 9 to go to a BCS game
HELP IS ON THE WAY
~Banned at ATO since June 3rd, 2011, 2ish PM PST
by SouthBayBuckeye on Sep 20, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
You forgot Navy at a nuetral site....
So I tried the Barbasol and Rotel dip and I was very dissapointed!
I trust in the Delaney
If he’s really interested in them, he’s on the phone telling them so. If not, it’s because we can get them later when we know whether ND is interested. We can offer Mizzou more money, more rivals, better academics, and a better fit. And we’ve all seen that conference agreements aren’t very binding. It’s all about where you want to be, not where you are. And Mizzou wants to be here. They’ll come if we ask.
by Dan TrueBlue on Sep 21, 2011 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Because we all know if there's one thing the SEC needs
It’s more Tigers.
by Dan TrueBlue on Sep 21, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
UConn is not an asset, and neither is Kansas
only add assets. If they are not, then stick with what you got. MIssouri is not an asset. People in Missouri don’t even follow Missouri. Most their blue chip recruits go to Iowa, Illinois, Arkansas and jail.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
REALLY?!?! Are you just gonna sit there B1G? Sit there and watch Missouri walk out the door. REALLY?!?!
honestly, wow.
im curious why the B1G isn’t jumping all over missouri?
And after all this angst, furious speculation, and general fear-mongering...
The SEC will still add another school if this rules out Mizzou, but it looks as if the Super Conferences will have to wait a few more years: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/6998751/pac-12-conference-decides-expand-further
The PAC-12 sounds pretty unequivocal about not admitting the Big 12 foursome. Not surprisingly, the reason given is Texas’ ego-mania. Unstated in the article is the reason Oklahoma and OSU were also declined. (Academics? Word has it several of the PAC school presidents were not keen on OU and OSU for this reason.)
I do not believe any of the Big 12 schools in play, including Texas, will be invited to the B1G for these same reasons.
Now the remaining schools in the Big 12 are going to try and patch things up for five more years; a story last night claimed OU demands that Dan Beebe be removed as conference commissioner.
The Big 12 will most likely add a school or schools to round out the conference; no word on whether Missouri did in fact accept an offer from the SEC, and whether they would still accept it now.
Breathe easier, Iowa State and Kansas schools; you get a few more years of AQ relevancy. As for the remaining Big East football schools, they look to be the biggest loser in all this.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 21, 2011 7:16 AM CDT reply actions
After reading more reading...
It seems OU and OSU were declined by the PAC due to logistical issues, plus the question, as some people posed in the comments here, of how to divide a fourteen-team conference.
It seems Mizzou will probably stay in the Big 12, and A & M will still go to the SEC. The BIg 12 is looking to add BYU and/or one or more of the Big East football schools in order to get to ten or twelve teams.
by Midnight Rambler on Sep 21, 2011 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions
After the spring of 2014, the Big 12 can fall apart.
Just needs to stay relevant until then.
"Many people need desperately to receive this message: 'I feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone.'"
I guess it's time to start heading back to reality
You know, the good stuff- HOLY SHIT MARK MAY JUST THREW HIMSELF OUT A WINDOW!
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by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Sep 22, 2011 11:33 PM CDT reply actions
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