Recruiting Wins and Losses: How Desirable is Your School?
Even though this week is Hat Week (Go 'Cats! Get the Hat back!), I thought I would share a pet project of mine. I'm not a big fan of recruiting rankings. I prefer wins and losses. So to me, the best way to talk about recruiting is to look at recruiting records, i.e. given a recruit with offers from several schools, where do they go?
Here's how it works: suppose a recruit has offers from Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa (chosen alphabetically). If that recruit ends up at Iowa, then Illinois and Indiana each receive a "loss" to Iowa. Appropriately, Iowa also earns one win over each of those teams. A school can only get one loss on a recruit, but they may get several wins, one for each competing offer.
Here are the head-to-head records of Big Ten teams (and Notre Dame) over the last 5 years (the players currently on the roster).
| Teams | Illinois | Indiana | Iowa | Michigan | Michigan State | Minnesota | Nebraska | NU | Notre Dame | Ohio State | Penn State | Purdue | Wisconsin |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Illinois | X | 19-8 | 14-20 | 8-25 | 16-22 | 14-8 | 6-6 | 2-12 | 3-20 | 5-30 | 4-18 | 12-18 | 16-15 |
| Indiana | 8-19 | X | 4-22 | 1-15 | 1-29 | 2-8 | 0-6 | 2-16 | 0-16 | 1-12 | 1-2 | 8-19 | 3-20 |
| Iowa | 20-14 | 22-4 | X | 8-20 | 16-17 | 18-13 | 17-10 | 1-4 | 3-20 | 2-21 | 4-11 | 17-4 | 25-21 |
| Michigan | 25-8 | 15-1 | 20-8 | X | 22-15 | 22-4 | 17-12 | 10-0 | 12-31 | 9-37 | 7-24 | 27-3 | 20-9 |
| Michigan State | 22-16 | 29-1 | 17-16 | 15-22 | X | 15-12 | 6-6 | 10-5 | 2-9 | 4-25 | 3-14 | 24-8 | 17-11 |
| Minnesota | 8-14 | 8-2 | 13-18 | 4-22 | 12-15 | X | 7-7 | 3-6 | 0-14 | 1-10 | 1-9 | 10-12 | 15-24 |
| Nebraska | 6-6 | 6-0 | 10-17 | 12-17 | 6-6 | 7-7 | X | 4-3 | 6-19 | 2-13 | 1-8 | 14-6 | 12-8 |
| Northwestern | 12-2 | 16-2 | 4-1 | 0-10 | 5-10 | 6-3 | 3-4 | X | 2-14 | 1-8 | 0-9 | 9-5 | 6-12 |
| Notre Dame | 20-3 | 16-0 | 20-3 | 31-12 | 9-2 | 14-0 | 19-6 | 14-2 | X | 16-23 | 11-7 | 16-1 | 21-5 |
| Ohio State | 30-5 | 12-1 | 21-2 | 37-9 | 25-4 | 10-1 | 13-2 | 8-1 | 23-16 | X | 19-11 | 16-0 | 24-5 |
| Penn State | 18-4 | 2-1 | 11-4 | 24-7 | 14-3 | 9-1 | 8-1 | 9-0 | 7-11 | 11-19 | X | 12-1 | 13-2 |
| Purdue | 18-12 | 19-8 | 4-17 | 3-27 | 8-24 | 12-10 | 6-14 | 5-9 | 1-16 | 0-16 | 1-12 | X | 7-8 |
| Wisconsin | 15-16 | 20-3 | 21-25 | 9-20 | 11-17 | 24-15 | 8-12 | 12-6 | 5-21 | 5-24 | 2-13 | 8-7 | X |
A few observations:
Northwestern and Wisconsin are an interesting pair. Against "lower tier" teams like Illinois and Purdue, Northwestern has a stellar 21-7 record, compared to Wisconsin's more pedestrian 23-23. However, against Michigan, OSU, Notre Dame, and Penn State, Northwestern has a dismal 3-41 result. Wisconsin doesn't perform spectacularly against that group (21-83), but they are at least competitive.
Ohio State has a winning record against every other team, which is unsurprising given their coaching stability and in-state talent base. Conversely, Indiana has a losing record against every team.
The two teams that have gone head-to-head with Nebraska the most are Iowa (not surprising) and Michigan (surprising to me at least).
I don't know why Iowa has gone up against MSU so many times.
Just like computer rankings can take win/losses record and determine an overall rating, they can also work on this data as well. I applied the Elo system, but other systems would work too. (My beloved transitive rankings don't handle multiple "games" between the same two opponents. They could be fixed, but that would be another project.)
| Rank | Team | Rating | Record |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Ohio State | 21.85 | 238-57 |
| 2 | Notre Dame | 21.4 | 207-64 |
| 3 | Penn State | 21.22 | 138-54 |
| 4 | Michigan | 20.05 | 206-152 |
| 5 | Michigan State | 19.24 | 164-145 |
| 6 | Iowa | 19.04 | 153-159 |
| 7 | Nebraska | 19.03 | 86-110 |
| 8 | Wisconsin | 18.81 | 140-179 |
| 9 | Northwestern | 18.69 | 64-80 |
| 10 | Illinois | 18.41 | 119-202 |
| 11 | Minnesota | 18.16 | 82-153 |
| 12 | Purdue | 17.91 | 84-173 |
| 13 | Indiana | 16.35 | 31-184 |
Brief, skippable description of finding Elo System ratings:
The Elo system picks one team (e.g. Northwestern). It assumes that all other current ratings are correct, and then tries to find the rating for Northwestern that was most likely to have resulted in reality (i.e. the rating that gives the highest probability to the actual head-to-head win/loss record of Northwestern against each team). It then assigns this new rating to Northwestern. Now it assumes that Northwestern's rating is correct and works on another team's ranking. It repeats that process until every team doesn't change anymore.
End of description.
The Elo system ratings give the probability of a recruit picking one school over another, and it's logarithmic. I chose 2 as the base, so if Team A's rating is 1 point higher than Team B's, a recruit with an offer from both schools is twice as likely to pick Team A than Team B.
For example, Iowa has a rating of 19.04 and Michigan has a rating of 20.05. If a recruit has an offer from both schools, he is 2^(20.05-19.04)~=2.01 times as likely to pick Michigan than Iowa. The actual result was 20-8, but the system found the best balance between their direct record and each of their records against the rest of the Big Ten. If the recruit has an offer from Indiana and Ohio State, he is 2^(21.85-16.35)~=45 times more likely to pick Ohio State. (Actual result was 12-1; I don't know the story of Shane Wynn but I'm sure it's interesting.)
These ratings don't differ much from expectations. Ohio State has the best recruiting territory, the most stable coaching situation and the best history of success over this time period, so it's no surprise that they have the highest rating. I expected Indiana at the bottom, but I was surprised just how much separates them from the others. Purdue is almost 3 times more likely to get a recruit, and everyone else is even higher.
Wisconsin seems a bit low, but that's primarily due to their weak record against the bottom half that I talked about earlier. I expected Nebraska to be higher. Their low rating comes from two causes: first, they have relatively little in-state talent, so they are always fighting uphill. Second, this period includes the 2007 and 2008 classes, which were seriously damaged by the conclusion of the Callahan era. Counting only 07-08, they would be 9th. In just the last two classes (10-11), they would be 5th.
There is a large gap between Penn State at 3rd and Michigan State at 5th (1.98~=4 times as likely to get a recruit). I'm guessing that in "normal times" Michigan and Nebraska would be closer to the top group, but both of them have suffered at least one messy coaching change in this time period.
I also believe that Michigan's loss has been MSU's gain.
One important point to remember is that these ratings are not comparing the quality of recruiting classes. They instead are a "get who you want" rating. These two are related, but not quite the same. For instance, a school might decide to only give football scholarship offers to children of alumni. This school would likely have a high rating in my chart (as they would likely have a high rate of success, regardless of other offers), but the quality of the recruiting class might be very low.
Because I'm a Northwestern fan and private schools face a different set of challenges, here are the same charts for the FBS private schools that graduate at least 75% of players.
| Teams | Boston College | Duke | Miami (FL) | Northwestern | Notre Dame | Rice | Stanford | Syracuse | Tulane | Vanderbilt | Wake Forest |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Boston College | X | 13-1 | 3-8 | 9-9 | 2-23 | 2-1 | 16-8 | 16-4 | 4-0 | 13-3 | 3-3 |
| Duke | 1-13 | X | 1-3 | 3-11 | 0-15 | 0-4 | 8-12 | 10-6 | 5-0 | 12-18 | 5-15 |
| Miami (FL) | 8-3 | 3-1 | X | 1-0 | 8-16 | 0-0 | 4-4 | 7-3 | 3-0 | 5-0 | 6-2 |
| Northwestern | 9-9 | 11-3 | 0-1 | X | 2-14 | 8-4 | 19-18 | 7-2 | 7-1 | 11-7 | 3-4 |
| Notre Dame | 23-2 | 15-0 | 16-8 | 14-2 | X | 1-0 | 31-8 | 5-0 | 0-0 | 15-1 | 11-0 |
| Rice | 1-2 | 4-0 | 0-0 | 4-8 | 0-1 | X | 3-3 | 0-0 | 4-1 | 1-4 | 2-3 |
| Stanford | 8-16 | 12-8 | 4-4 | 18-19 | 8-31 | 3-3 | X | 6-3 | 2-1 | 19-11 | 10-2 |
| Syracuse | 4-16 | 6-10 | 3-7 | 2-7 | 0-5 | 0-0 | 3-6 | X | 4-0 | 4-3 | 4-7 |
| Tulane | 0-4 | 0-5 | 0-3 | 1-7 | 0-0 | 1-4 | 1-2 | 0-4 | X | 0-7 | 0-3 |
| Vanderbilt | 3-13 | 18-12 | 0-5 | 7-11 | 1-15 | 4-1 | 11-19 | 3-4 | 7-0 | X | 8-10 |
| Wake Forest | 3-3 | 15-5 | 2-6 | 4-3 | 0-11 | 3-2 | 2-10 | 7-4 | 3-0 | 10-8 | X |
The ratings:
| Rank | Team | Rating | Record |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Notre Dame | 22.29 | 131-21 |
| 2 | Miami (FL) | 20.8 | 45-29 |
| 3 | Boston College | 20.02 | 81-60 |
| 4 | Northwestern | 19.59 | 77-63 |
| 5 | Stanford | 19.53 | 90-98 |
| 6 | Wake Forest | 19.03 | 49-52 |
| 7 | Rice | 18.69 | 19-22 |
| 8 | Vanderbilt | 18.64 | 62-90 |
| 9 | Syracuse | 18.09 | 30-61 |
| 10 | Duke | 18.03 | 45-97 |
| 11 | Tulane | 15.32 | 3-39 |
These ratings aren't on the same scale, so they can't be compared directly to the earlier Big Ten rating. Interestingly, Northwestern does a little bit better relative to Notre Dame on recruits that end up at private schools than recruits that end up at Big Ten schools.
Rice is surprisingly competitive in this ranking.
Notre Dame has an overwhelming advantage here. They're about 2.8 times more likely to get a recruit than Miami and almost 5 times more likely than Boston College.
Here is the chart for all BCS teams:
| Rank | Team | Rating | Record |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Texas | 23.34 | 524-52 |
| 2 | LSU | 21.58 | 586-214 |
| 3 | Ohio State | 21.5 | 609-193 |
| 4 | Alabama | 21.45 | 748-308 |
| 5 | Georgia | 21.32 | 672-300 |
| 6 | Notre Dame | 21.18 | 769-312 |
| 7 | USC | 21.07 | 588-287 |
| 8 | Penn State | 21.03 | 529-200 |
| 9 | Florida | 20.79 | 778-494 |
| 10 | Florida State | 20.78 | 761-446 |
| 11 | Oklahoma | 20.76 | 596-337 |
| 12 | Virginia Tech | 20.61 | 423-211 |
| 13 | Auburn | 20.44 | 615-456 |
| 14 | Texas A&M | 20.43 | 409-286 |
| 15 | California | 20.39 | 506-295 |
| 16 | Miami (FL) | 20.37 | 568-418 |
| 17 | Georgia Tech | 20.28 | 433-290 |
| 18 | Clemson | 20.22 | 514-438 |
| 19 | North Carolina | 20.12 | 547-432 |
| 20 | UCLA | 20.11 | 420-312 |
| 21 | Oregon | 19.95 | 487-367 |
| 22 | Michigan | 19.91 | 617-527 |
| 23 | Rutgers | 19.86 | 453-342 |
| 24 | South Carolina | 19.8 | 555-547 |
| 25 | Tennessee | 19.75 | 624-704 |
| 26 | Texas Tech | 19.72 | 398-371 |
| 27 | Oklahoma State | 19.72 | 409-366 |
| 28 | Washington | 19.61 | 323-270 |
| 29 | Arkansas | 19.6 | 413-398 |
| 30 | Pittsburgh | 19.53 | 346-300 |
| 31 | Virginia | 19.5 | 340-341 |
| 32 | Michigan State | 19.4 | 381-328 |
| 33 | Missouri | 19.36 | 295-274 |
| 34 | Boston College | 19.32 | 341-344 |
| 35 | Iowa | 19.32 | 381-347 |
| 36 | Stanford | 19.3 | 410-488 |
| 37 | Mississippi State | 19.24 | 200-274 |
| 38 | Northwestern | 19.15 | 224-215 |
| 39 | Nebraska | 19.12 | 508-669 |
| 40 | Mississippi | 19.1 | 384-559 |
| 41 | Baylor | 19.09 | 235-303 |
| 42 | Wake Forest | 19.04 | 241-291 |
| 43 | South Florida | 19.01 | 285-341 |
| 44 | Wisconsin | 18.97 | 344-401 |
| 45 | Arizona State | 18.75 | 254-386 |
| 46 | Kentucky | 18.67 | 267-401 |
| 47 | Illinois | 18.65 | 367-558 |
| 48 | North Carolina State | 18.52 | 240-475 |
| 49 | Colorado | 18.52 | 241-408 |
| 50 | Vanderbilt | 18.48 | 249-437 |
| 51 | West Virginia | 18.38 | 303-624 |
| 52 | Utah | 18.34 | 176-303 |
| 53 | Arizona | 18.32 | 255-535 |
| 54 | Maryland | 18.25 | 232-542 |
| 55 | Minnesota | 18.23 | 240-449 |
| 56 | Purdue | 18.23 | 239-459 |
| 57 | Oregon State | 18.13 | 136-277 |
| 58 | Cincinnati | 18.03 | 180-378 |
| 59 | Louisville | 18.02 | 253-588 |
| 60 | Duke | 17.86 | 159-444 |
| 61 | Syracuse | 17.85 | 136-349 |
| 62 | Kansas | 17.83 | 195-489 |
| 63 | Iowa State | 17.64 | 150-375 |
| 64 | Kansas State | 17.51 | 133-405 |
| 65 | Indiana | 17.19 | 104-353 |
| 66 | Connecticut | 17.18 | 63-257 |
| 67 | Washington State | 16.71 | 54-275 |
I don't know why fans were worried that Texas would gain a recruiting advantage from the LHN. They already get almost every recruit they offer without it. Oklahoma was 8-49 against Texas and they got more recruits with Texas offers than anyone else. Only 52 recruits have gone to another school with a Texas offer. The next best for fewest rejections is Ohio State with 193.
If Texas and Washington State both gave an offer to the same recruit, he would be almost 100 times more likely to pick Texas. Put that way, the system seems to overestimate WSU's chances.
Nebraska's 07-08 troubles appear even more starkly here. If just those years were considered, Nebraska would be 45th.
I didn't think that Cal would be so high (15). They are the flagship university of a very talented state, but all the teams near them in the ranking have either been good or at least hyped to be good.
The next step in this project will take these ratings and then determine the most desirable recruits (I'm open to any advice on how to do this, in particular how to balance someone with a large number of offers vs someone with just a few exceptional offers vs someone with a Texas offer). I might then take those recruit ratings to grade each school's recruiting, but I think those would be the same as these ratings.
(Note: All offer information is from Rivals. I would like to thank them for IP locking me only twice, at least one of which was deserved. To see all head-to-head information for all 120 FBS teams in the last 5 years, click here.)
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There's something wrong with this poll
I was expecting a “Magic Potato” option.
by mikjones24 on Sep 27, 2011 11:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
and an evil Wizgerald
In the name of the Woody, the Bo, and the Mustache Ride. Amen.
by Pariahwulfen on Sep 28, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very good work!
A bit surprised at how well Iowa does. We like to play the “we get low rated guys and coach ’em up better than anyone else” card relentlessly. But looks like the Hawkeyes more than hold their own.
Maybe Wisconsin is actually more of a developmental program than Iowa? Who’d a thunk?
Rec'd, even though it tells the truth...
And the truth hurts. The only team we can consistently beat out is IU. But I think there are a few things that are hard to spell out with this data. Should a school only offer players that it feels it will have a great chance of getting, or should it reach for the better players, even though if OSU or someone drops in, they will steal them? I have a sense that Danny Hope tends to go after the kids in Florida and other places that are being offered by a bunch of SEC schools and bigger schools, and thus will have a bad win loss record as far as recruits go. But if he were to get a couple of those to come to Purdue, then it could change the program, and thus help in recruiting.
Could you do this same deal with the Basketball recruits? I think that would be interesting, even though this is just a football blog. Great work.
“Should a school only offer players that it feels it will have a great chance of getting, or should it reach for the better players, even though if OSU or someone drops in, they will steal them?”
It’s certainly possible to “game” these ratings by only offering sure bets. That said, the system does adjust for “strength-of-schedule”. If Purdue offered 20 recruits with Florida, FSU, and OSU offers and got 1 of them, that would actually improve their rating.
What really hurts is Purdue’s unimpressive record against schools like Minnesota (10-12), Iowa State (6-6) and Duke (7-5). That’s much more incriminating than losing recruits to OSU.
I’ll probably do this for basketball at some point. Basketball is a little trickier due how few recruits there are.
Awesome Analysis, I found this interesting . . .
That Notre Dame really gets who they want (Second only to O$U). Unless they are not going after the top talent it would appear that they are doing a terrible job of translating recruiting success to on field success.
this is really good
He sired a baseball team... An orchestra, if you count the bastards!
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Sep 29, 2011 2:11 PM CDT reply actions
Recently Kirk Ferentz
way less than half jokingly stated his recruiting strategy should be to raid the MAC of all-stars just before signing day. Recruiting is fickle.
Iowa’s biggest recruiting win in the last 15 years? Fran McCaffrey out recruiting Roy Williams giving the Tar Heel coach his first ever premier Iowa bball recruiting failure. RW’s native iowa recruiting record is still 5 or 6 wins and just one loss. go hawks.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
this is great stuff
nicely done. did you manage to get the data from rivals in a big bundle and write a program to organize it, or manually go through every single recruit? because if it’s the latter, then damn.
i feel like you could come up a lot more great posts with that data, such as looking for correlated factors that lead to recruits choosing one school over another. excellent work.
Going back to 2002
it’s about 25000 different signees. I wrote a program that navigated through the Rivals site to find each recruit and download their page. The total size of those pages was more than 1GB, so that explains the IP lockouts. I did it with a timer that made it download only 3 pages/min, and once I did that they stopped locking me out. The program can then print out the charts or spreadsheets.
I have the entire rivals page for each recruit, so there’s quite a few points of data to look at (rating, position, home town, commitment date, recruiter, even some combine type stats). I’m definitely doing the “most desirable recruit” idea where it would judge how desirable a recruit is by what offers they have. I also plan to look at the effect of record on recruiting, either the year before or over a longer time period.
If you have any other ideas, I’m open to suggestions. As I said, the data goes back to ‘02, though I trust the older years less (there were more pages with bad links and missing information the further back it went, and I don’t how fastidiously the information was checked back then).
Nice analysis nuftw.
I’ve been working on something along the same vein… but have no programming talent and mining the data manually on a smaller scale.
Any chance you would be willing to share your source data?
Some ideas for further analysis: I devised a “6 year Sagarin rolling average” to reasonably well assess the quality of a program over time. My intent was to eventually devise a new sliding scale using this metric.
Something along the lines of (for 3 stars or less; averaging top 2 or 3 alternative offers): If a team that is in the
top 10 (eg tOSU) offers a recruit, you get +1 star…
11-15 +0.86
16-20 +0.72
21-25 +0.68
26-30 +0.54
31-35 +0.4
36-40 +0..26
41-45 +0.12
46-50 -0.02
51-55 -0.16 …..
Also, the date committed may factor. Recruits signed early might be different than those that commit in the summer/fall/late.
Gah! I can’t summarize it very well… sorry. Please let me know if you have any interest in my slant.
The sideline is always greener at MSU.
nicely done. did you manage to get the data from rivals in a big bundle and write a program to organize it, or manually go through every single recruit? because if it’s the latter, then damn.
M-E-T-H-O-D-O-L-O-G-Y, man?
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
Tical!
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Oct 3, 2011 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions

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